News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by jsheard on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:30AM (#41501769)
$700 and it doesn't even come with an optical drive, oof. The optical upgrade kit for the digital-only PS5 Slim is $80, so the Pro is probably going to be closer to $800 in practice unless you're already all-in on digital.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by StrLght on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:33AM (#41501813)
Asking this as a PC gamer who went fully digital ~15 years ago: why are optical drives such a big deal, is that because of buying/selling used games?
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by kstrauser on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:46AM (#41501988)
Sony released this tutorial years ago in response to Microsoft making it harder to share Xbox games with your friends: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWSIFh8ICaA

That's lived in my head since.

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by TMWNN on Wednesday September 11, 2024 @08:15AM (#41510608)
It's just below "$299" <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExaAYIKsDBI> among the greatest moments of console marketing.

(The single greatest moment isn't one moment, but turning an obscure technical description into "blast processing". <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bun8tA_ksZw>)

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by jsheard on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:34AM (#41501824)
Partly due to used games, but even when buying new it's often cheaper to buy physical than digital due to retailers undercutting each other, while the digital store strictly adheres to MSRP until the game has been out for a while.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by danudey on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:41AM (#41501915)
Not just buying used games, but borrowing games as well. Being able to swap games with friends is a pretty compelling offer.

(I'm all-digital and have been for the last nine years, but there are compelling reasons not to go that route)

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by paxys on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @12:36PM (#41502685)
Heck you can even borrow game disks from your local library.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by a96 on Friday September 13, 2024 @03:53AM (#41528983)
And movies and music and instructionals (including things that aren't on your, if any, streaming service). On disc.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by prmoustache on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:45AM (#41501977)
I don't know about optical drives but I bought ~75% of my switch games as used cartridge.

I think a lot of people would stop buying consoles if they couldn't sell the games they have finished or do not like anymore to fund the purchase of other games.

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by wil421 on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:50AM (#41502050)
Did you do it for nostalgic purposes? I buy the cartridges for nostalgic purposes. Most of the time the used games I want are only $10-$15 dollars less than a good Amazon or Target price.

I don’t think the younger generations care as much, they just play free games anyway.

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by prmoustache on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @12:11PM (#41502336)
> Most of the time the used games I want are only $10-$15 dollars less than a good Amazon or Target price.

I bought Zelda Breath of the Wild for 25€ while it is still sold around 60-65€ on my country's amazon market and is not available anymore in many places.

I mostly buy cartridge because I want to be able to play games regardless what happens of my nintendo account and I like being able to lend and borrow games with other switch owners.

I remember as a kid we would swap games with friends for a few months so we can have access to other games.

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by Hamuko on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:36AM (#41501847)
The PlayStation Store is a monopoly on the PS5, so there's no price competition there.

I compared the prices of disc releases and digital releases on the PS5 in early 2023 and you could often get the physical disc release for cheaper than the digital:

Final Fantasy XVI (PS5): 65€ disc / 80€ digital. Hogwarts Legacy (PS5): 59€ disc / 75€ digital. Diablo IV (PS5): 70€ disc / 80€ digital. Resident Evil 4 (PS5): 60€ disc / 70€ digital.

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by a96 on Friday September 13, 2024 @03:55AM (#41528998)
And 30€ used or 10€ after they're past being brand new.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by pengaru on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:48AM (#41502020)
In 40 years none of your digital only assets are going to work, if still accessible to you at all.

I played Excitebike [0] on a friend's childhood NES and CRT TV while visiting over Thanksgiving. All we had to do was blow the dust off the cartridge, and we were living in 1984 again. Having physical copies makes this scenario far more likely to succeed.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excitebike

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by gjsman-1000 on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:35AM (#41501831)
I refuse to have any business with digital only purchases; for a few reasons:

1. Just like movies, you don't own anything. Revocation can occur at any time.

2. More likely than movies, you might find your game patched to add or remove content you do not want.

3. You can't give your games to the next generation. Which matters a lot when your exposure to gaming started from NES and Atari hand-me-downs.

4. Every game you purchase is chained to just yourself. Which is actually stupidly selfish when you have a large extended family also interested in games. The Switch is a hit for borrowing back and forth from a large network of relatives and friends.

5. If you have a large NES collection, there will be someone interested in paying for it. If you have a large Switch collection, there will be someone interested in paying for it. Physical games have some asset value, and it can be thousands of dollars for larger collections. Digital games have zero value.

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by danudey on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:43AM (#41501948)
> More likely than movies, you might find your game patched to add or remove content you do not want.

Well this is a complicated point. A lot of games these days rely on digital distribution for day-one patches, a practice which allows developers to continue working on and polishing the game even after it goes gold. Physical only really gives you the option of "no updates at all" (including no day-one patch) or "every update so far to date" (including updates you don't want).

I agree with the rest of your points, but I think that this one would be relevant only in a few extremely niche cases.

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by mschuster91 on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:49AM (#41502037)
> Physical only really gives you the option of "no updates at all" (including no day-one patch) or "every update so far to date" (including updates you don't want).

For Switch games, you can always refuse to upgrade the game (the cartridges are read-only, the updates are stored as overlays on the microSD card or internal storage). Switch game cartridges are just fancy flash cards with a long-since reverse engineered communications protocol [1], and there's multiple card dumpers and reflashable cards on the market.

[1] https://switchbrew.org/wiki/Gamecard

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by diego_sandoval on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:55AM (#41502128)
> 1. Just like movies, you don't own anything. Revocation can occur at any time.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you'll still rely on Sony's servers to get the updates that make the game playable, since it has become customary to ship games riddled with bugs to patch them afterwards (which doesn't happen with movies, yet).

And if they really want to target you specifically, they can still blacklist your console by id, unless you completely stop connecting your console to the Internet.

So, buying the physical version can only protect you against revocation in very specific cases, unless you want to limit yourself to playing the broken version that is shipped on the disc.

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by prmoustache on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:40AM (#41501904)
I don't own a modern console other than the switch.

Can you play a ps5 game from optical media without having ever connected your ps5 to the internet or will some refuse to run?

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by paxys on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:45AM (#41501975)
Theoretically there is no problem with keeping your PS5 100% offline. It can read and play game disks perfectly fine without the internet. In practice though, plenty of games download additional content even if you have a disk, and there's no way to know in advance.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by kentm on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:48AM (#41502021)
Yes. I recently did this with Armored Core 6.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by gjsman-1000 on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:42AM (#41501920)
On the original PS5, yes.

On the PS5 refresh, no, an internet connection is required to activate the drive, whether or not it came in the box.

On the Xbox One... you haven't been able to, for over a decade.

On Switch... Switch is just delightful. The game cards even come with the required system updates (criticism for lack of theming or music aside, the whole OS is under 400MB, so amazing things are possible). You can also update your game or system wirelessly, from any other Switch, which has a higher version of either, no internet necessary.

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by FMecha on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:51AM (#41502061)
>On the PS5 refresh, no, an internet connection is required to activate the drive, whether or not it came in the box.

Because the disc drive and the main board are required to be paired with each other since the PS3/X360 era. People who repair PS3s (except super slims, for some reason) and PS4s need to re-pair the disc drive board with the main board (or failing both, replace both boards with one that has been already paired) every time there is drive replacement: https://www.psdevwiki.com/ps3/Remarry_Bluray_Drive (for PS3)

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by gjsman-1000 on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @12:04PM (#41502241)
They've been paired for a long time as you point out; however, that's missing part of the story.

In the past, they were at least paired from the factory. If you pulled your Xbox 360 out of the box, and never connected it to the internet, it would still work.

The PS5 refresh's disc drive is not paired, even from the factory. Without an initial internet connection, it will not work, even out of the box. Also, unlike the Xbox 360, it un-pairs every time you sign out of your personal account.

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by kassner on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:41AM (#41501911)
> Revocation can occur at any time

Given most games won’t work without online activation, does it even matter in the case of PS? Or you’ll contain yourself to non Sony/Microsoft platforms?

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by talldayo on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:41AM (#41501908)
> If you have a large NES collection, there will be someone interested in paying for it. If you have a large Switch collection, there will be someone interested in paying for it.

Well, yes for the NES. There's a limited number of cartridges made, there is no digital substitute, and the official cartridges are not being manufactured anymore. The demand for NES games is a product of their scarcity.

But have you tried actually selling a physical copy of a modern game? It's not like you're making your money back, you're lucky to recoup 1/3rd of the MSRP if there's even anyone interested in waiting for your copy to arrive in the mail. But there's also complicating factors like piracy, the immediacy of digital storefronts, and the used market controlling (and lowering) the price of used games. Famously, a trip to GameStop with a stack of PS3 games is worth maybe $5 of in-store credit and a complimentary soda pop.

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by FMecha on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:55AM (#41502127)
>there is no digital substitute

Flash carts exist that can bridge your own digital ROMs to original NES systems.

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by Sakos on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:49AM (#41502026)
Nobody said you'd get all your money back. Used games historically were generally cheaper and unless we're talking retro games, used games are always cheaper. That's the point. You get games cheaper when you buy. You get some money back when you sell. The idea that you need to get everything you spent back is nuts.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by paxys on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @12:39PM (#41502731)
Digital works on PC because there is competition. There are dozens of stores you can buy from, and the developer or publisher can also just sell games directly. On consoles Sony & Microsoft have a monopoly on distribution. So being able to buy/sell/borrow used disks is a huge money saver.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by bane on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @01:05PM (#41503032)
The situation for PC gamers is somewhat different than for console gamers. There's certain built in expectations in the market for compatibility across generations, long-term licensing, and free network services that just don't really exist in the console market. As a result it feels like you "own" games more with Steam and other similar services, while on consoles there is a history of closing down stores, and people simply losing access to purchased games.

Physical media gives the impression at least to console gamers that they "own" the game for the long term and the loss of a digital storefront won't impact them (even if it's not always true).

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by EasyMark on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @01:54PM (#41503595)
I think it’s due to “used games” market about 80%. Some people just like having physical media that can’t be taken away from them; others don’t care and are through with the game for a lifetime after they beat it/grow weary of it. I personally have tons of old games and kind of stopped buying new stuff after PS4. One day you’ll go to download “Gulliver’s Golden Adventure” for nostalgia and Steam will tell you to “fuck off, that game is gone”, but that won’t happen if you have it on vinyl
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by ajmurmann on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @07:06PM (#41506547)
I stopped buying physical years ago when Amazon got rid of their 20%(?) pre-order discounts. However, I'd not trade my PS5 for a drive-less PS5 Pro, even if it was for free. Most of my PS4 games are on disc and I couldn't play them anymore. If Sony were to allow me to insert the disc and get the games added to my digital library (many platforms did this for Blu-Ray movies), I'd reconsider. But in the meantime I am tied to my disc drive
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by synicalx on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @08:31PM (#41507061)
On PC you have your choice of marketplaces so it's somewhat less of an issue. On console you're locked into just the one marketplace with digital-only consoles, so if Sony wants to charge $100 for a game then that's the price. Once you've paid the $100 it's also tied to your account which is not necessarily always guaranteed to exist or be accessible, and is non-transferable.

Whereas with a disk you can pay substantially less due to your choice of competitive retailers (in my region Space Marine 2 is $79 at some retailers or $109 from Sony), buy secondhand for older titles (most of my library is secondhand), and resell or trade-in games when you're finished with them. And of course it's not tied to an ephemeral account, so you will always have access to the titles you've purchased.

Also for my use case, my PS5 doubles as a Blu-Ray player which is worth a good $100-200 just by itself.

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by johnnyanmac on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:48PM (#41507865)
Mostly because I simply like having a collection to look at. It's like comparing a small library to a list of ebooks on Kindle.

But yes, other obvious benefits include sharability, resellability (especially these days. So many childhood favorites sell for 200+ dollars for some reason), a perhaps false sense of preservation (I know there are some icky server issues on gen 7+ consoles, even for single player games), and simply liking the feel of a case and disc.

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Wednesday September 11, 2024 @02:09AM (#41508479)
We don't have the option for physical on pc, but it's the only way to "own" a videogame. Even steam is at risk. If Gabe dies, bad stuff will happen.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by pjmlp on Wednesday September 11, 2024 @02:48AM (#41508669)
So far no one has managed to escape that "if" unless we go down into religious beliefs.

Steam will go the way of dodo when the founder and his culture is no longer around.

Who knows, the new management might even sell it to Microsoft and retire for life.

Re:Playstation 5 Pro by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Wednesday September 11, 2024 @02:53AM (#41508700)
It's a running joke that Gabe is a god and will live forever
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by phonon on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:37AM (#41501857)
Storage went up from 825 GB to 2 TB though....
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by geerlingguy on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:32AM (#41501797)
No optical drive, and the vertical stand is also sold separately!
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by paxys on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:37AM (#41501859)
You are basically paying $250 extra for the GPU.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by Narishma on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @05:42PM (#41505905)
And the SSD.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by davexunit on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:45AM (#41501969)
Yeah... I was cautiously excited for the PS5 pro as I don't have a PS5 yet, but this announcement was disappointing. Long live the PS2, I say.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by gjsman-1000 on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:31AM (#41501785)
The disc drive is basically useless anyway from a long-term perspective (I don't say "preservation" because that's a farcical argument); because even on the bundled versions, it requires an internet connection to "activate" it. This also needs to be repeated when a user signs out or signs in as someone else.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by cassianoleal on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @11:44AM (#41501958)
On the other hand, you can sell a physical copy of a game you're not interested anymore. You can potentially buy another used game for the same money you got from the sales. Keep repeating and in theory you could play infinite games for the price of 1.
Re:Playstation 5 Pro by alexruf on Tuesday September 10, 2024 @02:42PM (#41504139)
I'm shocked. 90% of my game library is physical. So if the console is priced at 799 € without a disc drive, and the drive costs an additional 149 €, that totals 948 € if I want to continue playing my existing disc collection. No, thanks!