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Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by forrestthewoods on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @05:48PM (#41451238)
> this digital copy could only be checked out by one person and only when the physical book was not also checked out

Even if that were the case I don’t think it’s acceptable.

Physical used goods have limitations on transfer rate. If you want a used book you have to go to the store. Or have it shipped across the country.

I adamantly oppose a global digital pool with instantaneous transfers. In that world you never need to sell more than peak concurrent users. If that were the case then each copy would need to sell for thousands of dollars for content creators to afford food.

The same argument applies to “used” digital movies and games. It’s nonsense.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by mixologic on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @06:28PM (#41451537)
> If that were the case then each copy would need to sell for thousands of dollars for content creators to afford food.

That is precisely the agreement that existing libraries have with publishers now. The digital copy that they buy to lend out comes with restrictions on how many copies can be lent at a time, and also costs a lot more than just buying one copy of the book.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by forrestthewoods on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @06:48PM (#41451674)
That's certainly not the license that Internet Archive paid for!

If we want media licenses to cost thousands of dollars so they can be loaned out digitally fine. That's something that can be fairly negotiated.

What I oppose is a regular off the shelf purchase being used for unlimited, instantaneous digital rentals. That's disastrously terrible idea.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by Dylan16807 on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @08:41PM (#41452348)
Then find a lawsuit that specifically goes against the instantaneous part, because a ruling that says "no lending at all" is just awful.
Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by forrestthewoods on Thursday September 05, 2024 @12:29AM (#41453475)
The word “lending” doesn’t even make sense with digital goods. Nothing tangible is being lent or borrowed. Another perfect copy is being allowed to be made. Ironically it might not even be the same copy! Someone “borrowing” a digital good might download a copy of a new version or in a different language.
Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by rockskon on Thursday September 05, 2024 @03:37AM (#41454442)
The idea is to impose the restrictions of physical goods onto the digital one.

Your idea is to eliminate the very concept of a library where ebooks are concerned.

You may want to rethink your argument.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by forrestthewoods on Thursday September 05, 2024 @04:32AM (#41454713)
> The idea is to impose the restrictions of physical goods onto the digital one.

You know how some people think rent control is a good idea but then every economist explain how it’s actually bad? That’s how I feel about “impose the restrictions of physical goods onto digital”. It’s a terrible idea that has terrible ramification if you follow things to their logical conclusion.

> Your idea is to eliminate the very concept of a library where ebooks are concerned.

Yeah that’s totally fine. The metaphor of an ebook library is bad and illogical.

If you wanted to write digital-first copyright laws you wouldn’t invent a faux library. There’s better solutions out there.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by mezzie2 on Thursday September 05, 2024 @09:15AM (#41456329)
> Yeah that’s totally fine. The metaphor of an ebook library is bad and illogical.

E-book lending is pretty much the only accessible option for people with sensory impairments. I think they're a larger portion of the population than writers, so why do writers' monetary interests overwrite accessibility concerns? Plenty of books aren't available in large print or audio versions; e-books are a great way for us to read those books. Big text is best text.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by forrestthewoods on Thursday September 05, 2024 @03:49PM (#41459874)
People with sensory impairments can buy e-books. Why would their accessibility concerns grant them free access to the fruits of someone else's labor?

If you really, really want just pirate it. It's economically equivalent.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by mezzie2 on Thursday September 05, 2024 @04:38PM (#41460199)
So people with perfect vision and hearing should be able to check out materials from a library and people with impairments shouldn't? That's also against the law.

So you're against the existence of libraries at all? Since they provide free access to the fruits of someone else's labor? That is at least an honest position. I won't pretend to have any respect for it, but at least it's consistent.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by forrestthewoods on Thursday September 05, 2024 @05:29PM (#41460556)
> So people with perfect vision and hearing should be able to check out materials from a library and people with impairments shouldn't? That's also against the law.

People with impairments can also check materials out from the library. The existence of a library for some things does not mandate a library for all things.

> So you're against the existence of libraries at all?

I think that first sale doctrine strikes a great balance for physical goods. If you buy a hammer you can later sell that hammer. Or you can give it away. Or you can setup a little library where people can borrow it either for free or a small fee. Over time the hammer will degrade and some people might prefer a new hammer. The rate at which a hammer can exchange hands is severely limited by space and time. I live in Seattle and can not easily borrow a hammer from a friend in New York or London.

Digital goods are a different beast. Copies can be made instantly, perfectly, and effectively for free. There is no such thing as "borrowing" an e-book. There is only being allowed to make a perfect copy or not. Digital goods are not bound by space or time. A global library with infinite, instantaneous transfer of rights would limit sales to peak concurrent user count. This would obliterate economic incentives for producing new content which would be, imho, a catastrophic net loss for society.

Physical good and digital goods are extremely different. They can and should have different rules. Trying to force them under a single umbrella is sub-optimal for both.

If I were King my changes to copyright law would be related to duration. I'd shorten it from life+70 years to something like ~30 years with the ability to extend it an additional ~20 years with an increasing per-year fee. And possibly add some form of "use it or lose it" after just ~10 years. Or something along those lines. I am not King so I've not fully thought this through. However as someone who makes and sells proprietary entertainment software I have thought through the ramifications of global digital libraries with instant and infinite transferability.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by rockskon on Thursday September 05, 2024 @08:30PM (#41461685)
It puzzles me to hear of these "degradation" arguments, as if it isn't common to find perfectly readable books over 100 years old in antique shops.

"Degradation" is the conception publishers want to think of applying to their goods. Because they want an income stream worthy of items that perish in a matter of years, not decades or centuries.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by BlueTemplar on Sunday September 08, 2024 @07:08AM (#41479685)
I generally agree, but I'm not sure that your example works : it smells of survivorship bias (or whatever is the equivalent name for objects rather than people?)
Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by rockskon on Friday September 13, 2024 @02:27PM (#41533786)
Books do not biodegrade in a timeline we'll ever see in our lives unless there's water damage. Which is relatively rare.

It is very much not uncommon to see books several decades old in libraries. And I suppose it is survivorship bias in the most literal sense, but that's because there's so many survivors. It's practically the rule.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by BlueTemplar on Tuesday September 17, 2024 @02:52AM (#41565000)
Don't they ? I have books printed in the last half of the 20th century where I'm starting to get worried about the yellowing of the pages (and the seemingly degrading structural integrity of the pages).

I've heard it was something about acidic paper (with it also being a plague of cheap printing, while being much less of an issue of expensive printing techniques).

(«several decades old» is a low bar...)

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by Dylan16807 on Thursday September 05, 2024 @05:44PM (#41460645)
> You know how some people think rent control is a good idea but then every economist explain how it’s actually bad? That’s how I feel about “impose the restrictions of physical goods onto digital”. It’s a terrible idea that has terrible ramification if you follow things to their logical conclusion.

We're only talking about applying that to lending, which otherwise wouldn't exist, so I don't see the issue. And more importantly it's applying the rights you get with physical books. ...Come to think of it, what restrictions are being added that don't already exist in our current broken state of digital copyright?

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by rockskon on Thursday September 05, 2024 @05:47PM (#41460661)
> You know how some people think rent control is a good idea but then every economist explain how it’s actually bad? That’s how I feel about “impose the restrictions of physical goods onto digital”. It’s a terrible idea that has terrible ramification if you follow things to their logical conclusion.

Do you have a specific grievance with respect to imposing lending restrictions on ebooks to mimic their physical counterparts?

Your analogy alone is strained and doesn't serve this topic well.

> Yeah that’s totally fine.The metaphor of an ebook library is bad and illogical.

I contend that the information contained in the books and not the format they're stored in are what matters. People checkout books from libraries to read their contents, not to sniff the paper they're printed on.

> If you wanted to write digital-first copyright laws you wouldn’t invent a faux library. There’s better solutions out there.

Do tell of these better solutions that don't require waiting several decades for all the pre-Internet baby boomer octogenarian lawmakers and judges to die off from old age.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by cmiles74 on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @07:05PM (#41451794)
This is kind of a stretch, the Internet Archives book lending program under the CDL was not like a free Amazon. Reading software is limited and not great. Check out their website for details.

https://help.archive.org/help/borrowing-from-the-lending-lib...

IMHO, people who could afford the book are unlikely to have the patience to work through this process. Indeed, downloading from a pirate site would offer a lot more flexibility for the reader.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by tomxor on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @06:18PM (#41451458)
You're arguing against a principle that applies to physical libraries (Who also have films btw)...so are physical libraries also nonsense?

Libraries do not serve the interest of publishers (and let's just focus on publishers because if we're being real here, publishers are the ones who stand to lose money - "think of the authors" is just a distraction)... i digress, Libraries exist as a benefit to society, they aren't supposed to neatly fit into absolutist capitalist ideals.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by pineaux on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @06:35PM (#41451596)
Also you are allowed to lend your book out to anybody in earth at any time you want. You have bought the book, its yours you can do with it what you want. Burn it, read it, use it as toiletpaper. You arent allowed to republish the book however and earn money on it. Or give it away for free. So the real question here is: what is the definition of publishing. Is the IA publishing?
Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by forrestthewoods on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @06:33PM (#41451582)
> let's just focus on publishers

No. I'm focusing on all media - books, tv, movies, games, etc. It's one set of copyright laws.

> so are physical libraries also nonsense?

Copyright strikes a balance of rights between content creators/owners and content consumers. Physical libraries with the limitations of physical transfer strike are a reasonable balance. A global digital pool with instantaneous and unlimited transfer of non-degradable goods does not strike a reasonable balance.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by thfuran on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @08:08PM (#41452147)
The constitution explicitly states that copyright exists "to promote the progress of science and the useful arts". It's not meant to be about serving the financial interests of content owners except insofar as that also benefits society.
Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by immibis on Thursday September 05, 2024 @03:13AM (#41454315)
That's where the brainwashing comes in: good for society === makes rich people richer
Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by tomxor on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @07:07PM (#41451802)
> Physical libraries with the limitations of physical transfer strike are a reasonable balance. A global digital pool with instantaneous and unlimited transfer of non-degradable goods does not strike a reasonable balance.

That's a more interesting argument. I think it's valid, abstractly at least.

> Copyright strikes a balance of rights between content creators/owners and content consumers

Originally sought to, perhaps. However copyright has devolved into almost entirely serving the interests of the transferred owner who are overwhelmingly huge publishers.

It makes sense to me that a digital library poses an existential threat to the business model of those large publishers who have gradually moved away from obtaining or encouraging the creation of new original works (the original intention of copyright) to reselling and repackaging existing content over and over again. This is why things like DRM exist, not to prevent piracy, but one one many mechanisms serving this strategy by controlling how ordinary consumers can consume what they "bought", when, where, on what, for how long... so many types of restrictions all serving to extract the maximum economic return for each original piece of work they own - A library completely undermines that strategy, because it necessarily removes most of those mechanisms to function.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by 8note on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @10:06PM (#41452810)
What's missing is a requirement that any digitally published works must also be made available as physical media. Content owners can't keep their media out of public libraries by only publishing digitally. Otherwise, libraries need to be able to lend digital works
Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by account42 on Friday September 06, 2024 @04:36AM (#41464167)
> Copyright strikes a balance of rights between content creators/owners and content consumers.

Not at all. Creators have no ihnerent rights that need to be balanced. Copyright is only granted with the argument that encouraging creation benefits society. That is the only argument for its existence.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by Ray20 on Thursday September 05, 2024 @11:03AM (#41457310)
>Libraries exist as a benefit to society, they aren't supposed to neatly fit into absolutist capitalist ideals. Libraries fit perfectly fine in the absolutist capitalist ideals (because they exist as a benefit to society), it is itellectual property that are not.
Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by Amezarak on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @05:56PM (#41451291)
> If that were the case then each copy would need to sell for thousands of dollars for content creators to afford food.

We have an enormous surplus of content creators and most of the content is not very good. I don't see why we need to structure our economic system such that people must be able to making a living churning out mediocre scifi/romance/mystery novels. If they can, great, but I don't think that's the goal we should be aiming for with copyright. There would still be plenty of novels turned out every year even if copyright did not exist.

> In that world you never need to sell more than peak concurrent users.

That sounds good to me, and I doubt it's really much more than the number of sales now. Many/most people would still buy their own copy anyway, just as they do today when a new book comes out.

Copyright law as structured today is destroying more art than saving it; the number of out-of-print but copyrighted works that are vanishing from human knowledge is astronomical.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by forrestthewoods on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @07:12PM (#41451827)
> I doubt it's really much more than the number of sales now

Yikes. I can not possibly disrespectfully disagree more with everything you said.

Baldur's Gate 3 has sold about 15 million copies. It's peak concurrent user count on Steam is 875,343. A difference of about 20x that will continue to grow as BG3 will sell meaningful copies over the next 10 years.

Limiting sales to peak CCU is categorically insane. And deeply illogical.

And yes I am talking about a video game because the copyright laws for books and games are the same. I would expect the CCU/sales ratio for most successful books to be even larger than that of games which have a much more hyped launch day.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by Amezarak on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @07:29PM (#41451922)
The people that would borrow the game from the library to play it might at best pirate it if they couldn’t get it from the library. Maybe they’d pay a few bucks tops rather than $60-80. Library game borrowers are not big game buyers in the first place.

Games can and do already get around this anyway via software, if you want to argue the laws should work differently for them then I’m open to that, but I also don’t think games matter enough on a societal scale that we should tolerate current copyright laws in order to protect video game studios over the long tail of disappearing orphaned works.

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by forrestthewoods on Wednesday September 04, 2024 @07:41PM (#41451984)
If your goal is to prevent orphaned works there's much better and more targeted changes that could be made to the law! Don't need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

> Library game borrowers are not big game buyers in the first place.

That's because today there is effectively no such thing as digital game borrowing. If there were then there would be a platform that seamlessly grants and revokes licenses on application startup/shutdown.

People just want things cheaply. Why pay $60 for a game when AmezarakGamesStore lets you play for just $5? People used to buy used discs from GameStop for $55 instead of buying a new copy for $60. Consumers don't care. They justifiably just want to spend the minimum amount of money necessary!

Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by pastage on Thursday September 05, 2024 @02:44AM (#41454186)
IA did not charge nor did they get revenue from their users in other ways. They did have a system to handle borrowing and make it cumbersome to read stuff. That is an important distinction.
Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by rockskon on Thursday September 05, 2024 @03:39AM (#41454451)
Steam effectively implemented digital game borrowing years ago. Works just fine.
Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by mdp2021 on Thursday September 05, 2024 @04:22AM (#41454663)
Access to copies cannot be taken as negatively impacting sales. (On the contrary: access can reveal opportunities.)
Re:Internet Archive loses appeal over eBook lending by BlueTemplar on Sunday September 08, 2024 @07:05AM (#41479676)
Or we could set up an alternative system making sure that authors can make a living from their works (and not just the most popular ones either) :

https://stallman.org/mecenat/global-patronage.html