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Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by Samuel_Michon on Monday June 18, 2012 @08:27PM (#4129474)
Pen+touch+type seems like a great idea. It is something no other manufacturer has tried to do.

Apple Newton MessagePad, 1993. It had a stylus, handwriting recognition, you could use it with just your fingertips, and you could connect an external keyboard.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/atow/4314242537/

That was almost twenty years a go. Newton was a very expensive experiment for Apple, and they have learned the hard way that styluses are not the way to go.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by InclinedPlane on Monday June 18, 2012 @08:44PM (#4129569)
That was an era of different technology. Stylus alone (resistive touch) is not a good general purpose input system but works really well for inputting hand writing or drawing. Capacitive touch lacks fine resolution so it's not good for drawing but it's fantastic for UI because it supports multi-touch. Today we don't have to be shackled by the technological limits that held the Newton back. The Surface has both types of touch sensors so it can match the appropriate sensor to the appropriate use (drawing/writing or touch-based UI). Also, modern mobile computers have vastly more processing power and storage capabilities so, ironically, handwriting recognition is not necessary. The raw input can simply be stored away (as a vector graphic, perhaps, or even just as raw pixels).

Also, the general pattern of "someone tried that once, and they failed, so nobody should ever do that" is a really terrible way to go about engineering. Wile E. Coyote should not be a roll model. Just because someone failed at something similar. Just because YOU failed at something similar, doesn't mean you should give up on the whole idea.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by ConstantineXVI on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:48PM (#4129986)
Being pedantic; the stylus used here (and in the Galaxy Note, etc) isn't working off a resistive screen, but an active digitizer (likely N-Trig or Wacom).
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by forgottenpaswrd on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @03:43AM (#4130688)
The time delay in Galaxy Note is unacceptable for Apple(and for me, I used it a lot and I hated it).

You could do a responsible program on a Nintendo DS with 40MHz. Lazy people.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by stcredzero on Monday June 18, 2012 @09:42PM (#4129784)
Wile E. Coyote makes for an interesting roll model, considering that he's not round at all, but his body does seem to be able to adapt to a rolling mode when enough force is applied.

Also, he is a SU-per Geeen-ius!

I agree, that a good stylus would be a good addition to a tablet. A crappy stylus is worthless, though. It has to be a good one.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by jrockway on Monday June 18, 2012 @08:34PM (#4129513)
On the other hand, nearly ever doctor or professional I've seen using a tablet was using a Thinkpad with a pen rather than an iPad with their finger. Screwing around with iTunes and doing work are two completely separate use cases, and it seems that Microsoft is more interested in "the Enterprise" than Apple is. So with that in mind, they're trying to accommodate all use cases.

(I did have one doctor that insisted on using an iPad. It took him forever to type notes to the point of it being extremely irritating. Transcribe your notes later!)

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by Bud on Monday June 18, 2012 @09:09PM (#4129672)
"Screwing around with iTunes"?

You've either both not worked in any large companies lately AND never really used an iPad, or you are just blinded by platform bias.

The fact is that iPads are being massively adopted in Fortune 500 companies. And I can assure you that those users are not "screwing around with iTunes". In fact, iTunes doesn't even exist on the iPad, so you don't really know what you are talking about, at all.

(edit: Two instant downvotes on this, but I notice nobody is refuting my facts.)

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by bane on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:09PM (#4129873)
That's amazing because of the 11 Fortune 100 companies I've personally done work with in the last few years (and 2 more in that size range that aren't publicly traded), I don't recall seeing a single iPad.

I mean, I didn't work with Apple or Google, so I can guess you'd see them there. Neither bank allowed them on-site, and none of the defense contractors would even entertain the idea. You can also probably rule out obvious ones like Microsoft and HP from being big users of iPads. I can't imagine that the cashiers at Walmart, Target or the Home Depot are spending lots of time swiping around and now I'm quickly running out of companies.

I even did a part-time contract job at a company with 123,000 employees last year and not only didn't see an iPad, but they were forbidden on the corporate network and in most of the corporate offices (as was anything with a camera frankly).

oh, and FYI, jrockway actually does work at #73 on the 2012 list.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by Samuel_Michon on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:30PM (#4129944)
I think this is what Bud was referring to:

http://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/10/04/92-of-the-fortune-500...

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by dedward on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @12:08AM (#4130208)
A year ago you'd be right - but things are very, very rapidly shifting to tablets, including the ipad, with the appropriate corporate tools to manage/deploy/wipe/control/etc them.... It's going to change, and fast.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by niels_olson on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @01:28AM (#4130398)
> Defense

I'm active duty Navy, so I hear you. I really do. I'm still using WinXP on NMCI and was recently directed to remove Chrome from my desktop. However,

http://www.dvidshub.net/news/71885/semper-fipad-marine-corps...

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by clarky07 on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @01:42AM (#4130427)
it seems clear you are mostly talking about defense contractors. I've been there. Can't take a phone with a camera either. Not really a representative sample is it? Also can't have thumb drives. Probably no fortune 500 companies have ever used one of those either.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by trout on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:31PM (#4129950)
I work with a pretty decent chunk of the fortune 500, and I would disagree.

What I've seen is an aversion to the iPads, but there are certain places where they can't keep them out. If wireless is authenticated on AD or PSK, it's very difficult to stop them(though there are a growing number of options). If the executive has the power to override IT policy on approved devices, they have no choice.

For what it's worth, it's commonly referred to as the "Bring Your Own Device (BYOD)" movement or "the iPad problem".

Very few have truly accepted and encouraged iPad use since it's not an enterprise device. If you do have IT sponsorship for it, most companies are having to draw new lines around it rather than simply owning it like they historically did with Blackberries. Examples: you have to pay for your own, it has to be managed by MDM and have wipe privileges, you will have to access all applications through VDI, etc.

That said, enterprises aren't thrilled end users can take them home and sync them with their own iTunes and mess with what IT has built on the tablets. Plus Apple's grip on all aspects of the device don't lend to being controlled by MDM very well.

Enterprises are still looking for a replacement for Blackberry, and Microsoft is looking poised to make a shot. Apple doesn't seem interested in compromising their product to fit into the enterprise market.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by regularfry on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @04:54AM (#4130850)
Wondering about the downvotes?

    You've either...
    you are just blinded...
    you don't really...
Don't do that.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by mixmastamyk on Monday June 18, 2012 @09:22PM (#4129725)
There are iTunes and App store apps on my iOS devices which can't be removed.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by jpxxx on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @01:59AM (#4130456)
No worries.

Launch the Apple Configurator app.

[+] Profiles -> Create new Profile...

Restrictions -> Configure button

Uncheck [Allow Installing Apps] Uncheck [Allow Use of iTunes Store]

Save, Prepare, done. Nasty icons gone.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by bitrot on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:06PM (#4129866)
What does the presence of iTunes have to do with the ridiculous suggestion that you can only "screw around with iTunes" on an iPad? The logic of your and greedo's replies boggles.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by greedo on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:43PM (#4129979)
"In fact, iTunes doesn't even exist on the iPad, so you don't really know what you are talking about, at all. (edit: Two instant downvotes on this, but I notice nobody is refuting my facts.)"

Considering that Bud was spouting out of a bodily orifice, the rest of his argument is suspect as well. This, despite the fallacy of jrockway's argument deserves to be corrected.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by bitrot on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @12:00AM (#4130185)
Ah, my apologies. Somehow I managed to miss that part despite reading that comment and the replies several times over.

At any rate, jrockway is a known troll. Should've known better than to enter this fight.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by greedo on Monday June 18, 2012 @09:25PM (#4129739)
Take a good look around your iPad if you have one. Mine has iTunes...
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by novalis on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:17PM (#4129896)
You state that users from Fortune 500 companies that use massive amounts of iPads never use iTunes and that "iTunes doesn't even exist on the iPad"... and that is something you state as "facts" that would need to be refuted. Is that how zero platform bias blindness revealed itself to you. Can we keep this sane instead ?
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by barista on Monday June 18, 2012 @09:22PM (#4129720)
I think his point was that typing on iPad sucks. Feel free to disagree because sucks is a subjective measure.

I think that the integrated keyboard in both covers lets you make the choice which is what the point of the product seems to be.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by chadyj on Monday June 18, 2012 @08:58PM (#4129633)
For a great look at iPad use by doctors read this Wired article. "Canada’s Ottawa Hospital uses close to 3,000 iPads, and they’re popping up everywhere — in the lab coats of attending physicians, residents, and pharmacists. " http://www.wired.com/wiredenterprise/2011/12/apple-ipad-doct...
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by jrockway on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:50PM (#4129991)
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by tejaswiy on Monday June 18, 2012 @08:58PM (#4129629)
My comment is a question for greedo, couldn't reply to him directly:

Just curious, was this the Miami Children's Hospital? I actually built their whole check-in on the iPad experience in their hospital :)

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by greedo on Monday June 18, 2012 @08:54PM (#4129613)
My anectdata trumps yours. I took my daughter to the pediatrician yesterday, and the entire practice was equipped with iPads.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by greedo on Monday June 18, 2012 @09:02PM (#4129646)
-tejaswiy

No, I'm in the Midwest, far from the sea. Unless you consider cornfields a sea of sorts.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by tejaswiy on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @12:01AM (#4130188)
Ahh, too bad. Thanks though :)
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by timtadh on Monday June 18, 2012 @09:18PM (#4129709)
Let us not forget the Apple Newton Emate 300:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMate_300

Probably the best computer ever designed for children. I used one myself in school from 4th grade through 8th grade when I upgraded to a "real" laptop. The main reason for the upgrade: I couldn't program on the emate. Other than that it was in every way superior: Instant on, touch, nice keyboard, no distraction interface, usable in all lighting conditions, ect...

Now of course people would sneer at it since it didn't have any form of internet. However, at the time my teachers were more comfortable with it in the classroom due to those limitations.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by parkan on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:44PM (#4129981)
Actually, you could program for the eMate (NewtonScript, which is surprisingly powerful -- you do need a mac to build the app but you could write code on the device itself, there were apps for this), and you could connect to the internet, too -- I had a PCMCIA ethernet card with a pop-out jack in mine. I fondly remember printing to a HP laser printer via the IR port in the library, bypassing normal printing limits.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by kulkarnic on Monday June 18, 2012 @11:01PM (#4130028)
Yeah, so what? If you read HCI papers from the 90s (it's what I do for a job-- I'm a PhD student in HCI), you'll see that a lot of very respected researchers claimed that speech technology is not useful (their claim is well-founded: it is slow, environmental noise is unavoidable, what to say is often not obvious, and there's the Midas problem).

But, here we are, with people praising Siri. It's how technology works-- every input modality is useful for some tasks, and at some level of maturity. Dismissing technological potential based purely on past technology is short-sighted. [For examples of how Pen+touch is a good idea see http://billbuxton.com/Pen+TouchUIST.pdf. Add type, and it could be powerful indeed]

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by blhack on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @02:39AM (#4130539)
Do people actually use siri? The extent to which I've seen it used has been:

1) Making it say silly things about hiding dead bodies in ravines.

2) Trying to make it text things, only to give up and type the message by hand. Usually done while driving, and usually spanning the course of around a minute.

It's not even remotely close to something usable yet, at least not from what I've seen. Just look at how people use it, they don't even understand [or maybe they just don't like?] the interface for it!

Most people I see address it by name, like you would the computer on star trek. They hold down the button, and then say:

"Siri, where can I get a blah blah blah nearby?"

Which usually doesn't return a useful result. In this time I'm usually searching on google maps, and telling them the instructions before they've finished their attempt at an interaction.

You don't invoke the service by addressing it. The service was invoked by pressing the button.

Seriously I have yet to see a person who uses siri for something useful.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by taligent on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @03:43AM (#4130689)
I use it at least 4-5 times a day mainly for setting events and alarms.

It is much, much quicker to say "remind me about X tomorrow at 6pm" than unlock screen, find the app, open it up, create event etc.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by Samuel_Michon on Monday June 18, 2012 @11:16PM (#4130066)
For what it's worth: I'm not entirely convinced that Siri will ever work as advertised. I think the new car smell is gone and lately I've read nothing but complaints. Apple really needs to step it up. I expected more of the iOS 6 announcement, like a Siri API for third party apps and better communication between apps. That is what's needed to even come close to the 80s Knowledge Navigator idea. I mean, the dictation part is nice, but otherwise, I haven't found much use for Siri.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by jawngee on Monday June 18, 2012 @11:34PM (#4130110)
I use Siri constantly:

- change playlists when when I'm working out or biking

- set the alarm when I go to bed

- reminders (a lot)

- the weather

- looking up something on wikipedia and imdb

- and sending short sms messages

I'd say my use has grown over the last few weeks as I'm biking a lot more. There was an initial trust issue, and I still sometimes have this weird feeling of being on the spot when I'm dictating to Siri, but otherwise best "app" on the phone for me.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by Mythbusters on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @02:40AM (#4130540)
sample size of 1.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by rweir on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @05:45AM (#4130965)
how much anecdata do you demand?
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by podperson on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:03PM (#4129858)
I'm as big a fan of the Newton as anyone (I still have a Newton MP2000 in my nightstand -- I think it even has good batteries in it -- but there's a qualitative difference between something like this and the Newton (and arguing you could use the Newton with just your fingers is a stretch -- it required strong nails and considerable pressure).

I'm also a big fan of the iPad, but this definitely looks like something _worth criticizing_ (to paraphrase Alan Kay).

I think a big problem with this device as conceived is that most of the time I do not use my tablet neatly on a table, so the keyboard/cover is a cute gimmick, but only really of interest in limited cases (in much the same way as all the different keyboard options for the iPad, some quite clever, have proven a waste of time for me).

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by Produce on Monday June 18, 2012 @09:57PM (#4129836)
For crying out loud. Ofcourse styluses are the way to go if you want any degree of accuracy. The difference between yesterday and today is the difference between resistive and capacitive touch screens. In other words, the new type is far more sensitive and doesn't require having to tap a spot ten times to get it to register. Fingers are still good if you're doing things where accuracy is not important - e.g. tapping the screen to pause/play a video.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by regularfry on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @04:58AM (#4130862)
Good resistive screens are as responsive as capacitive, and they don't need a conductive stylus so you can easily flip between accurate and inaccurate modes. Seriously, if you get a chance to play with a Nokia N900, you'll see what I mean.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by aik on Monday June 18, 2012 @08:38PM (#4129546)
And it failed. I think the point is that it's nothing that anyone has tried recently, as the technology just hasn't been good enough. We're in a completely different world than the one in 1993. The question now is whether the technology today is good enough to be usable. No one else has tried it recently, meaning common understanding is that even today it's too complicated/not good enough. Until now.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by Samuel_Michon on Monday June 18, 2012 @08:57PM (#4129625)
Microsoft has been trying to sell stylus based tablets for years, and they never stopped: Windows for pen based computers, Windows XP Tablet PC Edition, UMPC, Courier, Slate PC, etc etc.

I'm all for experimenting by releasing products in the wild, hoping that the next iteration will finally find its market. But seriously, it's getting a little ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Tablet_PC#History

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by snowwrestler on Monday June 18, 2012 @09:18PM (#4129711)
Computerized handwriting recognition will never be good enough because even people have trouble recognizing handwriting--even their own.

And once the recognition fails, you're left with computer text that needs to be corrected. How? With a keyboard. So most people just gravitate toward using the keyboard in the first place.

A stylus is better for drawing (see: Wacom) but most people don't draw.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by hcurtiss on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:19PM (#4129907)
Onenote is a really great compromise. The handwriting remains, and it converts to text in the background. It's not perfect, but it doesn't have to be.

As a TabletPC user and a lawyer, I've been waiting for this form factor for years. IMHO, the only reason the TabletPC didn't thrive is (i) short battery life, and (ii) weight/size. This machine is, to me, the great promise.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by noveltyaccount on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:52PM (#4129997)
Yes. This machine may be The One. I've been craving a handwriting-friendly OneNote Extender for ~5 years. I envisioned it back then with e-ink for good battery life and as a dedicated, OneNote-only device. Times have changed.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by rapind on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:52PM (#4129998)
Could the future be Gregg shorthand via stylus? Apparently over 200 wpm...
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by stcredzero on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:17PM (#4129901)
Computerized handwriting recognition will never be good enough

Yes, but making eInk good enough is just a matter of getting latency down low enough.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by dedward on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @12:10AM (#4130217)
I recall the newton did a better job of recognizing my handwriting than I did...... so that won't hold.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by ttrashh on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:30PM (#4129947)
I have the Samsung reference tablet from Build. The stylus works very very well. Being able to lay my hand on the screen and write accurately is great.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by jasonkolb on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:17PM (#4129895)
I bought a bamboo stylus for my iPad and love it. I use it all the time.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by jsherry on Monday June 18, 2012 @08:41PM (#4129558)
Not everyone agrees. This one is rated pretty highly and apparently selling quite well: http://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Touchscreen-Including-Mot...
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by JumpCrisscross on Monday June 18, 2012 @08:35PM (#4129520)
The lesson they may have learned was 1993 was not the right time to launch a tablet. The iPad wasn't the first swipe at a tablet, either.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by esolyt on Monday June 18, 2012 @08:46PM (#4129576)
Stylus is optional on Microsoft's tablet though. You can use the tablet perfectly without a stylus. You may choose to provide some inputs by using a stylus.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by simplexion on Monday June 18, 2012 @10:09PM (#4129874)
Yes, Stylus is optional on my Galaxy Note. I thought I wouldn't use it, turns out I am constantly pulling it out. I think having the option to use a stylus is a fantastic idea.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by forgottenpaswrd on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @03:39AM (#4130677)
"they have learned the hard way that styluses are not the way to go."

No, what they learned is that requiring an active matrix behind the screen consuming battery and weighting more(and adding $1000 per device in terms of licenses), is not the way to go.

But I'm pretty sure that Apple is considering it with other technologies(like the same touch tech they use today with hi res for stylus). Not as the main input, of course, but for drawing like you can do on paper.

This is the single most important thing I need on a tablet as an engineer-designer, drawing sketches on a tablet so I don't need paper.

Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by kailashbadu on Monday June 18, 2012 @11:54PM (#4130166)
All that experiment proved is early 90s was not a right time for technology like Newton. Nothing more.
Re:Microsoft Introduces New "Surface" Tablet by mkr-hn on Tuesday June 19, 2012 @11:32AM (#4132346)
I'm sure someone very early in human civilization thought fire was unviable because you could only get it from lightning. Who's going to go out in a thunderstorm to secure a fire before the rain puts it out? It'll never catch on.