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Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by sethammons on Saturday August 17, 2024 @05:38AM (#41273094)
I have "unlimited" vacation here in the states. If you go over three weeks, they still require special paperwork, but they allow it if you are tenured enough.

What unlimited means is "as long as your manager is decent, you will maybe get your days off" vs accrued vacation where you may be forced to take vacation to not lose it.

Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by withinboredom on Saturday August 17, 2024 @05:46AM (#41273132)
> accrued vacation where you may be forced to take vacation to not lose it.

I don't look at it that way. If you have accrued vacation, you "earned" your vacation and they can't take it away from you without compensation. Thus, you are guaranteed your days off. If they fire you, they should even have to pay you your salary for those vacation days.

"Unlimited" vacation just gives all the control to your employer: the right to deny you vacation, the right to dictate how long your vacation is, etc.

Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by solatic on Saturday August 17, 2024 @06:17AM (#41273291)
> If you have accrued vacation, you "earned" your vacation and they can't take it away from you without compensation... If they fire you, they should even have to pay you your salary for those vacation days.

This is indeed the law in Israel. What happens is that people are allowed to accrue a number of vacation days up to a limit, typically however many days of vacation you earn in a year, times two. Then the company forces you to take, at the end of the year, a number of vacation days down to the limit.

Companies where this limit wasn't put in place introduced a moral hazard, whereby people would wink-and-handshake with their superiors when they would take a reasonable amount of vacation without actually reporting the vacation days to HR, wherein HR didn't really have the means to detect and enforce against the fraud. Thus people would work for decades, retire, and take compensation for decades of "untaken" vacation days, on top of the normal retirement packages. These policies represented usually $1+ million in obligation per worker and thus were clearly unsustainable without some kind of enforceable limit.

Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by gpvos on Saturday August 17, 2024 @09:38AM (#41274508)
Why would a company allow that, can't they put a limit on that themselves? All my employment contracts in the Netherlands had a clause about that.
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by solatic on Sunday August 18, 2024 @12:33AM (#41280144)
Legacy mistakes from decades ago that cannot be fixed because the employment contracts are collective contracts signed with unions who refuse to introduce limits into new collective contracts.
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by gpvos on Sunday August 18, 2024 @10:07AM (#41282469)
Legacy legal mistakes, the worst kind.
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by thaumasiotes on Saturday August 17, 2024 @06:16AM (#41273289)
> If they fire you, they should even have to pay you your salary for those vacation days.

This is required in the US. That's the point of unlimited vacation - since it doesn't accrue, the company doesn't have to pay it out when you leave.

Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by hiatus on Saturday August 17, 2024 @10:43AM (#41274944)
It is not required in the US as it varies by state.
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by mrkstu on Saturday August 17, 2024 @11:37AM (#41275280)
Enough states require it that most companies large enough to be multistate in employment go ahead and standardize it into their policies.
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by hiatus on Saturday August 17, 2024 @04:32PM (#41277727)
Apparently 27 states require it, but New York does which makes it more likely a large employer would.
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by lmkg on Saturday August 17, 2024 @09:00AM (#41274256)
> If you have accrued vacation, you "earned" your vacation and they can't take it away from you without compensation... If they fire you, they should even have to pay you your salary for those vacation days.

This is the law in California but not most other states.

In most states, vacation time is a benefit that can expire, evaporate, or be rescinded. The company is just deciding not to assign you job duties during your time off. How generous of them! But it's totally their right to decide not to do that, or to put a bunch of boxes around how they will do that. So it's legal, and common, that unused vacation time will actually be lost.

In CA, accrued vacation time is classified as "deferred compensation." It is legally money that is owed to you. It will be paid at a later date, but it must be paid.

It strikes me as no coincidence that the "unlimited vacation" fad started in tech companies with a large chunk of their workforce in California.

Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by mark-r on Saturday August 17, 2024 @10:32AM (#41274873)
Nebraska goes a step further. Lots of companies have a "use it or lose it" policy for vacation time, so they won't have a ton of liability on the books. Nebraska courts have declared that vacation time is compensation that can't be taken away from you, so "lose it" isn't an option. I worked for a company with half its workforce in Nebraska even though I'm in Minnesota. To comply with the law, the company didn't pay out your vacation at the end of the year - they locked you out and forced you to take it, now.
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by leetrout on Saturday August 17, 2024 @09:21AM (#41274396)
Bingo: unlimited vacation is a scam
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by VincentEvans on Saturday August 17, 2024 @09:51AM (#41274592)
It really depends. The company I work for - doesn’t even have a time-keeping system. Taking vacation is a matter of sending a slack or email, or simply verbally letting your manager and team mates know that you won’t be available. So far this year I’ve taken more than 3 weeks at least. I know it’s not a ton, but the point is - that I don’t know the actual exact count, I strongly suspect that nobody really tracks it in any way, and I am planning to take few weeks more before the next year.
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by leetrout on Saturday August 17, 2024 @01:24PM (#41276147)
I replied to the sibling comment, minimum vacation policies are more employee friendly and can offer the same flexibility as "unlimited".
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by ghaff on Saturday August 17, 2024 @09:39AM (#41274514)
It's highly dependent on company (and team) culture. If you can actually take a generous amount of vacation, personal, and sick (if you need it) time, I have no real problem with it. (Then, I haven't moved around a lot--I know some people who move jobs every year or two count on a payout from accrued vacation when they do.)

Someone I know who retired from a fairly senior position at Netflix rather liked it and took some fairly long vacations but said there really was a good tradition of umplugging at least as he observed that came from the top.

Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by leetrout on Saturday August 17, 2024 @01:23PM (#41276132)
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by ghaff on Saturday August 17, 2024 @03:06PM (#41277079)
I don't really disagree although you can't really keep people from working on their days off if they want to, at least in a remote/WFH situation.
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by Schiendelman on Sunday August 18, 2024 @08:00AM (#41281814)
You most certainly can. I work for a US company where when you're out on (paid, six month) parental leave, your system access is disabled.

They don't do that for normal PTO but it's certainly feasible.

Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by ghaff on Sunday August 18, 2024 @12:38PM (#41283381)
There are a lot of reasons to cut access for people out for an extended period who may not even come back.

Pretty much no one (outside of maybe something regulated who may mandate two week PTOs for security purposes) is going to do that every time an employee takes PTO. In any case, if I really want to do work I don't even need access to my employer's computers.

Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by nmcfarl on Saturday August 17, 2024 @09:41AM (#41274524)
Since everyone’s discussing the inverse, I shall mention that long ago I worked for a 100 person, 5 year old, startup who's policy was: your vacation is your year-end bonus. No one could take vacation ever, it just got paid out in December. They did give you Christmas and New Year’s off.

Getting sick was jokingly referred to as a firing offense, though people did take sick leave. Burnout was a real thing – and I barely lasted a year, though that may well have been unrelated.

Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by swader999 on Saturday August 17, 2024 @09:18AM (#41274380)
I used to work at a place like that. I should make some inquires to see why they stopped paying me.
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by gpvos on Saturday August 17, 2024 @09:31AM (#41274462)
Assuming it is paid vacation, why is the special paperwork required? Governments over here require minimum amounts of vacation out of health concerns, but I can't imagine how giving away more or even infinite vacation days would concern them as long as the employer is happy with it.
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by chgs on Saturday August 17, 2024 @12:03PM (#41275475)
I could see each stint being off for more than 3 weeks would require something from the manager to confirm enough handover has happened. Waiting too 3 weeks is normal each time, but if you’re a project manager and vanish for 5 weeks at a critical part of the project then someone needs to know.
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by gpvos on Saturday August 17, 2024 @02:01PM (#41276520)
Yeah but why would there be paperwork mandated by law?
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by chgs on Saturday August 17, 2024 @04:47PM (#41277829)
I don’t think anyone said they did
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by gpvos on Sunday August 18, 2024 @04:46AM (#41281065)
The question would then become why a company would impose such paperwork on itself; but someone else replied that it has to do with unions, which I guess could explain it although it's still weird.
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by chgs on Sunday August 18, 2024 @01:19PM (#41283677)
Working for a 100 year old 5b/year company the amount of forms to fill in to do various things are extreme.

I could easily see a requirement from high up managment to “reduce risk” by having a department have a plan for an unusually long holiday stint (I.e someone taking 6 weeks off in a row), fundamentally because senior management don’t trust middle management.

Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by jonhohle on Saturday August 17, 2024 @10:42AM (#41274935)
My last office job had unlimited vacation and I never used it (not did most of my coworkers) and at the end of the year you neither had the days taken off nor had you accrued any credit for I taken time.

At the job before that I had accrued 6 weeks of PTO, which was the max. I took every other Friday off after that and was paid out a month and a half when I left the company. Everyone understood the situation, so it wasn’t looked down upon when I was gone every other week.

My perspective was that unlimited PTO was a scam to reduce vacation time. Most people are not going to take advantage of it, so the company benefits.

Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by dunham on Saturday August 17, 2024 @11:12AM (#41275101)
In addition to not having to pay out at the end of employment, they also do the "unlimited vacation" thing to reduce the liability of unpaid PTO on the books. When our revenue was hit hard in the early days of covid, the company I work for asked everyone to take a week of their PTO to help the financials look better.
Re:X to pay €550k to employee fired for not replying to yes-... by bushbaba on Saturday August 17, 2024 @11:57AM (#41275426)
And when you quit you don't get unused vacation days paid out! Unlimited PTO is worse for employees than a prefixed number of days per year.