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Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by t0mas88 on Thursday August 15, 2024 @05:21PM (#41260500)
Google is offering a free browser, while making a good browser costs money. They are subsidising that by their huge ad-business.

And by no surprise, their browser is the only major one that has no privacy protection features and last month decided to abandon the plan to deprecate cookies and tracking.

That browser is competing with someone like Opera (used to be a paid for product) and Mozilla in an unfair way, because Google is killing others by making it free and taking the loss.

Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by xp84 on Thursday August 15, 2024 @06:01PM (#41260882)
> last month decided to abandon the plan to deprecate cookies and tracking

Make no mistake, all that original plan was about was about applying pain to everybody else in the advertising world, while their replacement for cookies would have been satisfactory only at Google's scale. The whole thing was Google astroturfing, taking advantage of everyone's ignorance of how the Internet works to further entrench their advertising monopoly.

I don't know why they aborted the plan, but I suspect regulators had caught on that it wasn't altruism but Anti-competitiveness that motivated it.

Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by sushid on Thursday August 15, 2024 @05:54PM (#41260812)
But Opera and Firefox and others are all free browsers as well. I agree with the parent commenter that its not exactly a monopoly in the traditional sense. It's not even the default browser on Mac or Windows.
Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by dwattttt on Thursday August 15, 2024 @06:02PM (#41260887)
> Opera and Firefox and others are all free browsers as well

And yet browser development costs money. If browsers cost money, you could make a better product and compete by selling it, but when an incumbent is giving theirs away for free?

Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by xp84 on Thursday August 15, 2024 @06:12PM (#41261008)
Yes! The situation that has been our world since MSIE went free over 25 years ago.
Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by sahila on Thursday August 15, 2024 @08:37PM (#41261963)
How does your rationale explain Internet Explore/Edge and Safari which both have abundance of money and still can’t outcompete Chrome? This goes back to the original point about Google search being superior to Bing, and not just because it’s free.
Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by dagmx on Thursday August 15, 2024 @08:48PM (#41262031)
Differing priorities. Edge is based on blink now anyway , so as a core browser engine they’re roughly the same. It’s the higher level UX that is differentiated.

Safari has largely caught up now for web standards and mostly only lags behind in experimental features that are largely driven by Google anyway. But Safari has better battery use and privacy.

Chrome is good because Google see it as their play at a web OS. That’s why they shove everything and the kitchen sink into it.

So it’s just different priorities and the resulting differentiators. I don’t think any major browser is actually significantly better anymore today.

Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by katbyte on Friday August 16, 2024 @01:53AM (#41263530)
I would love to use safari but for years now it will randomly just start refreshing pages. I have no idea why or even where to begin to debug it so on chrome I stay.

Removing manifest v2 might be the kick to try Firefox again but I’d still like to fix safari

Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by tracker1 on Friday August 16, 2024 @12:26PM (#41267815)
The irony there is for a while, I considered Blink based Edge better than Chrome. The issue is they added what are basically a bunch of pre-installed extensions to Edge that I really hated and kept making the UX worse to me.

Honestly if there was a set of plugins that would sync my bookmarks toolbar links I'd have less issue switching browsers and trying others more.

Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by dwattttt on Thursday August 15, 2024 @09:13PM (#41262163)
> How does your rationale explain Internet Explore/Edge and Safari which both have abundance of money and still can’t outcompete Chrome?

How do I explain groups that attempt to compete and don't overthrow an incumbent? How much explanation does that need? That's literally the default, most attempts to overthrow the king fail.

Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by 3000browsers on Friday August 16, 2024 @02:28AM (#41263673)
And when a king does fall, it's never a guarantee who gets to stay in that throne. Even in actual political overthrows, there is no profession more dangerous than being the guy who led the revolution, and we can count in less than half a hand how many humans in history actually got the spot, got struck down and then made a legitimate democratic comeback afterwards.

More often than not, when a product is replaced, the growth of the replacer is a steady way upwards from 0. Not a meandering stable placement that suddenly shuffles around. I dunno what's the reasoning for that phenomena, I just chalk it up to people refuse change without perceived innovation. But point is, experience states that none of the browsers should be doing too much more than what they already do - the only likely path to victory is waiting for others to fuck, and not even Twitter, a shithole, could do that to themselves.

Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by dwaite on Saturday August 17, 2024 @07:21PM (#41278858)
> How does your rationale explain Internet Explore/Edge and Safari which both have abundance of money and still can’t outcompete Chrome?

Google justified a huge investment in Blink by making effectively making it the application platform of their netbooks. They also justified such an investment because they are afraid of other companies owning the method they get their ads in front of people - Such as dramatically changing and increasing their investment in Android when they saw the first versions of iPhoneOS.

The ChromeBook is why Google has so many non-standardized API in Chrome (that people often refer to under the umbrella of "PWA".) No other browsers saw an urgent need to be able to e.g. scan for and talk to bluetooth devices from a webpage, and in fact the other browsers were somewhat appalled by the security implications.

Edge: Gave up, and now repackages Chromium. They spent over a decade as an incumbent with supposedly only a half dozen developers on the IE team, and that was because they were doing their own monopoly game (protecting the Windows platform from cross-platform applications). They couldn't overcome their lack of momentum, and quite frankly had an inability to attract experienced talent.

Safari: Does fine, but Apple never directly cares about market share - they want profit share. There's no profit maximization for free browsers; WebKit and Safari investment is about owning the best default browser on Apple platforms, and it has better system performance. It is certainly arguable that Safari is better than Chrome on Mac. And let's not forget part of how Chrome got such a quick start is that they are a fork of WebKit.

Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by bradknowles on Monday August 19, 2024 @04:09AM (#41288914)
Opera is based on Chrome, and therefore does not belong in this comparison.

Safari would be a better example.

Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by tim333 on Thursday August 15, 2024 @05:52PM (#41260789)
Yeah but there's no great shortage of competing free browsers.
Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by nine_k on Thursday August 15, 2024 @08:40PM (#41261976)
There was exactly the same kind of lawsuit in France some years ago: free Google Maps insidiously put paid cartography companies without any special features out of business.

The antitrust legislation protects consumers, not businesses. If Linux provides for free what a proprietary software offered for money, it's a net win, even if that company goes out of business.

The problem with Chrome is not that it's free. The problem is that it develops more and more anti-customer traits, like making it hard to block ads, and uses its market share and compatibility issues to force these on customers.

The problem with google search is that Google integrates it with Chrome and Android, and buys the default search engine slots in other browsers, so that many customers are not even aware of other options. Sadly, Bing and DDG are not clearly superior, and, say, Kagi is paid. (Kagi is a good example of a paid product that's significantly better than the common free alternative.) Ironically the default search engine deals is how Firefox acquires most of its funding.

I don't see an easy way to find Google guilty of hurting customers through monopoly power in search or browsers: free products, a few alternatives, trivial cost of switching, no price gouging possible. Same with dumping: products start and remain free, most of Chrome is open-source and competitors reuse that same code, and customers are free to use these derivates, or adequate independent browsers and search engines.

It's a bit like coca-cola: alternatives abound, downsides are known, but people just seem to weirdly prefer it.

Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by disgruntledphd2 on Friday August 16, 2024 @06:54AM (#41265181)
> Ironically the default search engine deals is how Firefox acquires most of its funding.

Note that this also makes Chrome look like it dominates the market less which is presumably why they keep spending this money on FF.

Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by bradknowles on Monday August 19, 2024 @04:08AM (#41288909)
But there is no Pepsi cola to compete with it. And there’s the problem.
Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by voxic11 on Friday August 16, 2024 @12:48AM (#41263244)
Making a good OS costs money also but linux is given away for free. Is linux unfairly competing with Microsoft and Apple?
Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by pjmlp on Friday August 16, 2024 @02:55AM (#41263817)
Taking IBM as an example, they were one of the first in 2000 to make Linux business a reality, because in doing so, it makes their own Aix development costs lower, and eventually played so well that they own Red-Hat, without which, many key projects like GCC and GNOME would lose their main source of income.

The other UNIX vendors that went out of business thanks to Linux's free beer, or Microsoft and Apple's issues trying to sell licenses for their OSes on the server room, both now supporting Linux VMs as "The Year of Desktop Linux", are good examples that when it is free, everyone takes it no matter how it goes.

Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by Teever on Friday August 16, 2024 @01:13AM (#41263347)
You have to look at this on a case by case basis.

It's not hard to see that the browser market has suffered from the actions of Google, while the operating system market has not suffered from the actions of Linux.

If anything antitrust action against Google might give Microsoft another kick at the mobile can and they can take on the Linux-based android OS that Google distributes.

Re:Google is a monopoly. Breakup may be coming; what comes a... by dwaite on Saturday August 17, 2024 @07:26PM (#41278883)
> And by no surprise, their browser is the only major one that has no privacy protection features and last month decided to abandon the plan to deprecate cookies and tracking.

Oh they didn't abandon the plans, they chose something worse. They are going to make it a user decision.

Advertising companies can still gain some value for people who have third party cookies enabled, applications which aren't well-maintained enough to remove a reliance on third-party cookies will fail (sometimes), and users will be pushed by things like work SaaS apps to re-enable third party cookies (as a global setting) to be able to use required services.