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Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by colordrops on Thursday August 15, 2024 @12:47PM (#41257971)
If everyone just sat back and allowed the powers to do what they please, we'd have absolutely nothing in this world. Countless have spilled blood or have been killed over the fight for freedom in the past giving us the humanist open society we have now. The fight is never over.
Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by FredPret on Thursday August 15, 2024 @12:57PM (#41258088)
This isn't a clear-cut case of humanism vs something else.

Humanist values include right to property ownership, and the right to get the benefits of your work. Artists deserve that, and can sell their rights to big studios if they want.

Just because it's easy to copy something, or just because studio execs were idiots who wouldn't get on board with streaming, or whatever else, doesn't mean it's morally right to copy someone's work for free.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by scarmig on Thursday August 15, 2024 @01:02PM (#41258132)
Humanism arose during the Renaissance, when scholars and artists gleefully cribbed from each other's work without attribution and copyright didn't even exist.

It's perfectly fine to copy someone else's work. The immorality comes in when you start using physical force to punish people thinking thoughts you feel entitled to.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by FredPret on Thursday August 15, 2024 @01:10PM (#41258207)
I'm 1000% in favor of free ideas and free speech.

Copying scientific ideas (with attribution!) is completely OK and good.

Having heterodox ideas is vital for society.

Forcing people to think certain thoughts (or trying to) is the worst evil.

But making a movie is a commercial enterprise that involves risking a bunch of capital. It rarely pans out to make a profit. Copying it without payment is a very minor form of theft, but it's still theft.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by scotty79 on Thursday August 15, 2024 @03:54PM (#41259739)
> Forcing people to think certain thoughts (or trying to) is the worst evil.

Like forcing people think that copying is theft? Or that by clicking a button you agree to few hundred page agreement you couldn't possibly read or understand?

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by MacsHeadroom on Thursday August 15, 2024 @01:15PM (#41258257)
Depriving someone of their liberty over interference with a revenue model based on copyright protections is not 1000% in favor of free ideas and free speech.
Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by FredPret on Thursday August 15, 2024 @01:19PM (#41258313)
Yes it is.

If the content is a movie created in the last 100 years, it was almost certainly created to slot into that revenue model.

The artists have a right to sell their property on their terms. And if they decide to do so by selling their rights to a studio, then that's how it is. And if you don't like corporations, contracts, or the revenue model, then that's completely irrelevant to the parties involved.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by kelseyfrog on Thursday August 15, 2024 @03:22PM (#41259452)
Not all stipulations sellers place on items are legal. For example, I cannot sell you a scooter with the stipulation that if I need a kidney, you'll have to donate one to me.

Furthermore, what is and isn't legal is a product of the legislature and the judiciary. Let's not forget that people write laws and interpret laws. They aren't some function of the cosmic order, though it's convenient to posture them as if they were.

When someone "has the right," it's because a group of people gave it to them, and anything that can be given, can be taken away. The fact that we forget this reality is a massive collective hallucination. Once you know how the hallucination works, it's hard to buy into it ever again.

TLDR; The arrow of implication doesn't go from reality -> laws. It goes from laws -> reality.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by FredPret on Thursday August 15, 2024 @04:05PM (#41259834)
This is an interesting argument but at the moment the laws say piracy is illegal. And they do so in a way that is super reasonable, no kidneys involved.

The pirated works were created under this understanding of the rules.

In other words, movies and games were financed and made at great expense and effort with a view to selling copies and tickets and making money off of VHS rentals / Netflix streaming. Piracy is a clear subversion of this, and by the way, if it became mainstream, would break the industry that creates some of the things we like.

While the law isn't part of some cosmic order, there's nothing written in the stars that entitles you to every creation of every other person, at your convenience, for free.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by kelseyfrog on Thursday August 15, 2024 @04:50PM (#41260227)
Definitely. It's good to point out that these discussions often co-mingle two topics: "What should happen given these laws?" and "What should these laws be?"

I'm glad there's room for both and the gray areas in between.

Do we, for example, have an obligation to those who play by laws we believe to be unjust?

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by colordrops on Thursday August 15, 2024 @02:42PM (#41259122)
You could add restrictions to anything to create business models. Doesn't mean it's natural and helpful to society. The vast majority of movies are tripe and provide no real value to humanity. And the vast majority of revenue go to a few executives and middlemen rather than the artists. The fact that this regime exists now is not proof that it is a good thing - that's circular logic.
Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by ruthmarx on Thursday August 15, 2024 @08:51PM (#41262049)
It's not theft in any sense of the word. Please stop reporting this misinformation ASAP.

If movie productions were so concerned about profit, maybe they should stop all the Hollywood accounting nonsense.

The industry has just made several films surpassing a billion dollars. The industry is absolute fine. And someone downloading Deadpool isn't stealing or doing any harm to that industry.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by amy-petrik-214 on Monday August 19, 2024 @11:42PM (#41296527)
I hope that one day metal 3D printing becomes cheap, advanced, reliable and widespread. I hope you design an amazing epic car, the best ever, which everyone suddenly begins downloading, 3D printing, and driving around here or there. Only then would you know the pain of having your car downloaded, I put that pain on you.
Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by ruthmarx on Tuesday August 20, 2024 @06:45PM (#41304864)
I do create and publish content, I just haven't drunk the kool-aid that makes me think I'm entitled to a set amount of money for every copy consumed.

If people want to pay for it they will, and if they don't they won't. If I don't have enough talent to make a lot of money from my work, then that's the only reason - not piracy.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by MacsHeadroom on Thursday August 15, 2024 @01:12PM (#41258224)
>The immorality comes in when you start using physical force to punish people

for sharing or facilitating the thinking of thoughts you feel entitled to.*

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by cdchn on Thursday August 15, 2024 @01:47PM (#41258601)
>when scholars and artists gleefully cribbed from each other's work without attribution and copyright didn't even exist

This was also a time before mass copying and distribution on a massive scale.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by Fomite on Thursday August 15, 2024 @02:13PM (#41258851)
This was also a time of wealthy patrons
Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by __loam on Thursday August 15, 2024 @01:19PM (#41258297)
Creative work costs money to make. People who make it should have the right to make a living off it. It's not hard. Most of the people on this site make their money creating intellectual property. How many piracy activists here would be willing to leak the source code their company relies on?
Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by AnimalMuppet on Thursday August 15, 2024 @01:25PM (#41258384)
And how many expect that there would be no repercussions if they did, even if they believed it would be a moral thing to do?
Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by kylebenzle on Thursday August 15, 2024 @01:12PM (#41258227)
That is 100% the antithesis of the hacker spirit and I shudder at your callousness.

1. All information wants to be free.

2. The second something is digitized it becomes "free".

3. Artificially depriving someone of something that is free for personal profit is immoral.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by FredPret on Thursday August 15, 2024 @01:26PM (#41258391)
I have to be a communist to have "hacker spirit"? Hardly.

1. All information wants to be free.

Information on the order of complexity of a movie cannot want anything.

2. The second something is digitized it becomes "free".

Nearly free to copy, doesn't mean you're free to take it.

3. Artificially depriving someone of something that is free for personal profit is immoral.

I get the sentiment here but I don't think it follows in the context of an artist creating something specifically to make money from it when it gets distributed.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by colordrops on Thursday August 15, 2024 @03:52PM (#41259719)
it's very simple. trying to apply the concept of property to information is unnatural and has hindered human progress more than it has helped. Information is not like physical property, which is limited in supply. In fact it doesn't even really exist. To tell me that having the atoms on MY hard drive or MY ink molecules on MY paper arranged in a certain pattern is absurd. I'm not depriving anyone of anything by doing this. I am the one being deprived by not being allowed to arrange them how I wish.

To try to own information is like trying to own a flame. I lit your candle with my candle, so I own the flame on your candle. Making a copy is the same. To claim you own the copy is just plain stupid.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by FredPret on Thursday August 15, 2024 @04:21PM (#41259961)
This is a weird argument.

Information can be any collection of bits. You can copy these easily and almost for free.

But almost nobody cares about information in the abstract. I'm talking about specific, artful arrangements of bits. Lots of effort goes into making sequences of bits. (we can give our sequence of bits names like "The Lion King" or "Windows 98"). You only want a copy of these bits because of the effort that went into it.

Of course nobody can control how you flip the bits on your hard drive in practice, but that's missing the point. It's a particular arrangement of bits that you find entertaining or informative or useful, somebody put a lot of work into making it that way, and it's this creative effort that you end up enjoying and paying for, not the actual bits.

And of course you are depriving the artists of something - a royalty payment. The art was likely created with a view to that royalty payment. Which is why you want to pirate it in the first place. You want to enjoy the creative work without having to shell out for it.

You can come up with elaborate arguments about information theory, but in the end this is what it comes down to - pirates want other people to create value for them, for free, and will howl about "corporations" and "information wants to be free" to try and justify it.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by kylebenzle on Friday August 16, 2024 @12:48AM (#41263242)
I concur with u/colordrops 100%.
Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by colordrops on Friday August 16, 2024 @02:39AM (#41263735)
How much effort they went into selecting that particular set of bits is of no consequence to the state afterward. If someone made a million dollar machine that lights a flame, it does not make subsequent flames lit from the original flame any more valuable. Same goes for air or water, which are all deadly important, but as they are also virtually infinite in supply, they have no cost. Nestle is of course trying to change that with water.

I don't owe artists any royalties just because they say so. If they demand a kiss they won't get it either. I won't be bound by arbitrary restrictions around the physical matter in my possession.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by FredPret on Friday August 16, 2024 @12:47PM (#41268046)
> I don't owe artists any royalties just because they say so. If they demand a kiss they won't get it either. I won't be bound by arbitrary restrictions around the physical matter in my possession.

There's a lot of "me me me" in this. If you want to live in a lawless society where morality revolves only around what is physically possible, that might be possible on some remote island; but don't be surprised if nobody on that island bothers to build any million dollar flame-lighting machines for your benefit.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by AnimalMuppet on Thursday August 15, 2024 @01:27PM (#41258404)
1. Information doesn't want anything. Yes, digital information is easy to copy and hard to copy protect.

2. No. It becomes easily copyable.

3. Irrelevant, given the problems with 1 and 2.

Re:Kim Dotcom's Extradition to the U.S. Given Green Light by... by null0pointer on Thursday August 15, 2024 @08:02PM (#41261806)
> 1. Information doesn't want anything.

The phrase means "want" in the same way water "wants" to flow downhill.