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Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by niyyou on Sunday July 21, 2024 @03:17PM (#41027413)
This is a very partial view. A good number of people, including American democrats were disgusted by his unwavering support to the current genocide in Gaza. Many believe he could have stopped it with a phone call and explicitly refused. I know many who swore they would not vote for him, regardless of the circumstances.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by stemlord on Sunday July 21, 2024 @04:20PM (#41027792)
You're saying you know democrats who would rather accept trump over biden?
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by nozzlegear on Sunday July 21, 2024 @04:25PM (#41027824)
> Many believe he could have stopped it with a phone call and explicitly refused.

This seems to take all of the culpability, motive and free will away from Netanyahu. I'm not saying Biden couldn't make that call, but why do we assume Bibi would have actually stopped if so?

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by mustafa_pasi on Sunday July 21, 2024 @04:50PM (#41027978)
To a lot of outsiders it honestly looks like to some extent Israel controls US foreign policy. It's not a good look. Why does the US have to tiptoe so much around this issue? Why does Israel have such leverage? What is this leverage?

I always say, imagine if it was France instead of Israel. Then you see how crazy the situation is.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by zeroonetwothree on Sunday July 21, 2024 @05:10PM (#41028143)
I can’t imagine the US wouldn’t support France given a comparable terrorist attack.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by dahfizz on Sunday July 21, 2024 @05:23PM (#41028257)
A strong West-allied military in the Middle East is extremely valuable.

If France started a war of aggression, the US would also 100% stand with France, especially if it started with France being hit with a terrorist attack. I’m not sure what you are trying to say.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by nozzlegear on Sunday July 21, 2024 @05:27PM (#41028296)
From my layman's perspective, it's because a lot of people in the US just plain support Israel. I think that's because of religious connotations but again I don't really know. I've even seen an Israel flag being flown in the same yard as a Trump 2024 yard sign, here in my tiny northwest Iowa town.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by rockskon on Sunday July 21, 2024 @08:29PM (#41029735)
Because critics always say what they don't want but rarely think through what they do.

The very likely case of Palestine replacing Israel would be a rapidly anti-US, anti-Western, anti-Democratic government and a loss of a very valuable port in the middle east due to the, y'know, rapidly anti-US issue.

Also depopulating Israel of Jews would almost certainly result in another Holocaust. Because Hamas - the most likely-to-govern organization for Palestine - has long enshrined Jew murder in its charter.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by dunekid on Monday July 22, 2024 @03:03PM (#41038438)
What a way to reduce the Palestinian resistance to just one organisation! As if there are no murderous settlers being enabled by the state of Israel.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by rockskon on Monday July 22, 2024 @07:43PM (#41040984)
I am assigning the notion of a single entity governing the theoretical nation of Palestine. All current look as if that entity would be Hamas.

What alternative do you have in mind?

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by dmurray on Sunday July 21, 2024 @04:49PM (#41027964)
Depends what was in the phone call! If he said "I'm going to drone you and everyone in your cabinet and all of your family" that would probably have done it, coming from the one person on earth who can credibly make that threat.

Biden's aides could probably come up with a more nuanced and more statesmanlike but equally effective threat than that, of course. Any US president would have great leverage to threaten an Israeli PM personally or politically, or threaten changes to US foreign policy that would work badly for Israel.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by mschuster91 on Sunday July 21, 2024 @04:58PM (#41028055)
> Any US president would have great leverage to threaten an Israeli PM personally or politically, or threaten changes to US foreign policy that would work badly for Israel.

US Presidents aren't dictators and there is no way _any_ policy change too bad for Israel wouldn't have led to serious financial issues for any party. AIPAC is damn well connected.

In any case, I don't believe Netanyahu would have caved. No matter the threat - the crimes of Oct 7 were way too serious for any Israeli PM to leave unanswered. It was the equivalent of 9/11 - and just like the US back then, who completely flattened Afghanistan in retaliation, there is no way any other Israeli PM would have had any other realpolitik option than to fight until Hamas is gone off the face of the planet.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by erentz on Sunday July 21, 2024 @07:10PM (#41029178)
It’s more like 10x worse than 9/11. Israel is a fairly small country of 9m people. So much of the population was connected to those killed. If you scale it to the US it would be as if 41,000 Americans were killed. Our response would be off the charts in such an event.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by dmurray on Sunday July 21, 2024 @06:16PM (#41028735)
> there is no way _any_ policy change too bad for Israel wouldn't have led to serious financial issues for any party. AIPAC is damn well connected.

Well, yeah, it might not have been good for Biden financially or for the US strategic military position in the region. That's exactly why he didn't make the call - it's not that he doesn't care about the slaughter of innocents, but he cares about other things more.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by lamontcg on Sunday July 21, 2024 @04:31PM (#41027850)
> PALM BEACH, Fla. — Former President Donald Trump declared Tuesday that Israel must “finish the problem” in its war against Hamas, his most definitive position on the conflict since the terror group killed 1,200 Israelis and took more than 200 hostages on Oct. 7.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-israel-g...

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by ActorNightly on Sunday July 21, 2024 @04:41PM (#41027908)
This is just the vocal minority who hyped up Bernie online back in 2016 and 2020.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by nsguy on Sunday July 21, 2024 @05:03PM (#41028097)
The US public is not as supportive of Israel as it used to be but support is still broad. The opinions you're reflecting are a small minority. I would expect that democrats lost votes on their "both sides" approach here since more centrists would have move to the right then people on the left who at best can not vote in protest. Stronger support for Israel would have not only reduced Palestinian suffering in the war but would have also likely gained support for the democrats.

For example, Israel was pressured to delay its offensive in the beginning of the war after the Oct 7th attack, which likely caused more casualties and prolonged the war and it was pressured in other ways that prolong the war. There was certainly nothing like "unwavering support", e.g. there was intense pressure to avoid an operation in Rafah, e.g. with the US administration saying the population could not be evacuated, but then Israel ignored that, and the population did evacuate.

On the other hand, there is virtually no chance that the US could have forced Israel to stop the war because Israelis view this as an existential threat. No threats or measures the US would take would override that view. This is likely why Biden is not able to stop the war by making a phone call.

I think it's important for people that want the war in Gaza to end and to see less casualties and suffering to understand this calculus. Israel's and Hamas'. What those people seem to be working towards in practice is a prolongation of the war, more suffering by everyone, and possibly the election of Trump in the US.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by C6JEsQeQa5fCjE on Sunday July 21, 2024 @06:04PM (#41028625)
> On the other hand, there is virtually no chance that the US could have forced Israel to stop the war because Israelis view this as an existential threat. No threats or measures the US would take would override that view. This is likely why Biden is not able to stop the war by making a phone call.

No chance? That's a very unimaginative view. Here's one way to do it that would have caused Israel to immediately stop: "If you keep going against what we are publicly saying, we will no longer veto security council resolutions against you, and UNGA will move forward with sanctions once they realize we're not going to protect you anymore."

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by myth_drannon on Monday July 22, 2024 @08:59AM (#41033852)
Biden tried to threaten and stop Israel and this is one reason for it taking so long. It took like five months to start invading Rafah, which is crazy. And the main reason is Biden administration stalling it. Thank G-d now Dems will be busy with their political infighting and survival and the hot stage of this war will be over soon and Gazans can breathe a bit and start thinking about their future.
Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by dunekid on Monday July 22, 2024 @02:58PM (#41038355)
When would that future come? The Genocidal PM of Israel is not accepting any truce at this point, and vowed again to bomb and murder Gazans.

If today is not ending, how can there be a tomorrow?

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by nsguy on Monday July 22, 2024 @03:37PM (#41038883)
Israel is acting towards its declared objectives which it views as existential: The removal of Hamas from power in Gaza and the return of its hostages. Hamas is acting towards its declared long term objectives of destroying Israel at any cost.

It's ok for you to disagree with those objectives, or Israel's assessment of threat, but you can still see how a truce that leaves Hamas in power does not align with Israels' declared objectives. If you can offer a truce to Israel that removes Hamas from Gaza and Israel rejected that then I'd support your argument but that option is not on the table at the moment (partly because it does not align with Hamas' objectives). From Israel's perspective the proposed truce neither guarantees the return of all Israeli hostages nor the removal of Hamas from Gaza.

Israel's current government is also unlikely to work towards the proposed truce because it involves releasing Palestinian prisoners which will be seen as a win for Hamas and also a potential for future violence. This is where Israel is divided internally with many (most?) supporting a truce and parts of the government working against it. But most Israelis would still see the truce as temporary and agree that Hamas' survival in Gaza is not acceptable after Oct 7th. If Hamas was to e.g. leave Gaza (like the PLO left Beirut) then many options open up for ending the war and moving forward (including removal of the current Israeli government).

Again regardless of your opinion/politics you need to see this from Israel's side if you want to be able to achieve a solution. The Ukraine/Russia conflict is similar in that you need to understand what both sides are looking for and what they're willing to concede before you can end that war. Just saying that you think the war should continue until Russia is repelled from the entirety of Ukraine, while potentially a reasonable moral position, may not be a practical one or one that minimizes the number of people getting killed. I say that as someone who is 100% supportive of Ukraine. There's the idealistic outcome and then there's reality.

It's certainly true that if Israel has no other alternatives, and under the assumption it views Hamas' survival in Gaza as an existential threat, then it will continue to use force to achieve that objective, which will certainly lead to more people getting killed. Israelis and Palestinians.

If this is the scenario we're looking at, and we want to minimize Palestinian suffering and casualties, then we should be looking at how this force can be used in the most optimal way to achieve these objectives. For example, a truce that gives Hamas a chance to rebuild its defenses and re-establish control over broader areas of the Gaza strip is almost certainly going to lead to more suffering and casualties.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by runarberg on Monday July 22, 2024 @08:11PM (#41041176)
Israel just passed a law calling a UN agency a terrorist organization, thus making them legitimate (in their own twisted minds) targets in an ongoing genocide. Earlier that same legislator denied any prospects for a 2-state solution making it absolutely clear that they aim to at best keep Palestine in a state of domination, what the ICJ has ruled as apartheid.

I think it is a mistake to claim Israel is acting with anything but genocidal intent. Even their own legislator shows this genocidal intent when it validates obviously invalid targets. Their aim is not the removal of Hamas from power in Gaza, but the elimination of civilian order of Palestinians in Gaza. And it is clearly and obviously moving towards that goal.

Hamas is not an existential threat to Israel. They don’t have the military nor political capabilities for that. At best they are a threat to Israels ongoing policies of apartheid. But in that regard, so is the ICJ.

Re:Joe Biden stands down as Democratic candidate by xenospn on Sunday July 21, 2024 @07:38PM (#41029418)
On TikTok, maybe.