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Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by 01100011 on Friday July 19, 2024 @01:55PM (#41009160)
This might be a good time for folks to go back and watch the first episode of James Burke's Connections: The Trigger Effect

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcOb3Dilzjc

Interconnected systems can fail spectacularly in unforeseen ways. Strange that something so obvious is so often dismissed or overlooked.

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by fsloth on Friday July 19, 2024 @02:13PM (#41009350)
Crowdstrike though is not part of a system of engineered design.

It’s a half-baked rootkit sold as a figleaf for incompetent it managers so they can implement ”best practices” in their companys PC:s.

The people purchasing it don’t actually know what it does, they just know it’s something they can invest their cybersecurity budget into and have an easy way to fullfill their ”implement cybersecurity” kpi:s without needing to do anything themselves.

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by lawlessone on Friday July 19, 2024 @02:44PM (#41009707)
>they just know it’s something they can invest their cybersecurity budget into and have an easy way to fullfill their ”implement cybersecurity” kpi:s

To be fair. This is what companies like Crowdstrike are selling to these managers. Emphasis on the world "SELLING"

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by 015a on Friday July 19, 2024 @04:05PM (#41010535)
Exactly, and this is why I've heard the take that the companies who integrate this software need to be held responsible by not having proper redundancy, and while its a fine take, we need to keep absolutely assailing blame at Crowdstrike and even Microsoft. They're the companies that drum the beat of war every chance they get, scaring otherwise reasonable people into thinking that the Cyberworld is ending and only their software can save them, who push stupid compliance and security frameworks, and straight-up lie to their prospects about the capabilities and stability of their product. Microsoft sets the absolutely dog water standard of "you get updates, you cant turn them off, you can't stagger them, you can't delay them, you get no control, fuck you".
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by fsloth on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:07PM (#41009936)
Exactly.
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by thelittleone on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:31PM (#41010206)
Perhaps true in some cases but in regulated insustries (example fed regulated banks) a tool like crowdstrike addresses several controls that if uncontrolled result in regulatory fines. Regulated companies rarely employ home grown tools due to maintainance risk. But now as we see these rootkit or even agent based security tools bring their own risks.
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by fsloth on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:39PM (#41010280)
I’m not arguing against the need to follow regulations. I’m not familiar what specifically is required by banks. All I’m saying Crowdstrike sucks as a specific offering. I’m sure there are worse ways to check the boxes (there always is) but that’s not a much of a praise.

My rant is from a perspective in an org that most certainly was not a bank (b2b software/hardware) and there was enough of ruckus to tell it was not mandated there by any specific regulation (hence incompetence).

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by josephcsible on Friday July 19, 2024 @04:55PM (#41011100)
The point is that CrowdStrike is only useful for compliance, not for security.
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by p_l on Friday July 19, 2024 @05:47PM (#41011712)
A properly used endpoint protection system is a powerful tool for security.

It's just that you can gamble compliance by claiming you have certain controls handled by purchasing crowdstrike... then leave it not properly deployed and without actual real security team in control of it (maybe there will be few underpaid and overworked people getting pestered by BS from management)

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by rozap on Friday July 19, 2024 @04:02PM (#41010514)
I think a lot about software that is fundamentally flawed but gets propelled up in value due to great sales and marketing. It makes me question the industry.

It's interesting that this is being referred to as a black swan event in the markets. If you look at the SolarWinds fiasco from a few years ago, there are some differences, but it boils down to problems with shitty software having too many privileges being deployed all over the place. It's a weak mono culture and eventually a plague will cause devastation. I think a screw up for these sorts of software models shouldn't really be thought of as a black swan event, but instead an inevitability.

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by stackskipton on Friday July 19, 2024 @04:07PM (#41010558)
But most managers get to their positions by passing the buck and not being present when inevitability happens or being able to blame the other guy.
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by ilya_m on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:20PM (#41010101)
> have an easy way to fullfill their ”implement cybersecurity”

There's a typo in there. "Do cyber" is how the said managers would phrase it.

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by Natsu on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:30PM (#41010202)
That kind of phrasing lends itself to some wild misunderstandings...
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by bryant on Friday July 19, 2024 @02:59PM (#41009855)
This is an interesting response. I'm curious why you specifically believe "it’s a half-baked rootkit sold as a figleaf for incompetent it managers."
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by fsloth on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:18PM (#41010057)
That’s my experience as an unfortunate user of a PC as a software engineer in an org where every PC was mandated to install crowdstrike. Fortune 1000.

It ran amok of every PC it was installed to. Nobody could tell exactly what it did, or why.

Engineering management attempted to argue against it. This resulted in quite public discourse which made the incompetence of the relevant parties in it-management related to it’s implementation obvious.

Not _negligently_ incompetent. Just incompetent enough that it was obvious they did not understand the system they administered from any set of core principles.

It was also obvious it was implemented only because ”it was a product you could buy to implement cybersecurity”. What this actually meant from systems architecture point of view was apparently irrelevant.

One could argue the only task of IT management is to act as a dumb middleman between the budget and service providers. So if it’s acceptable it managers don’t actually need to know anything of computers, then the claim of incompetence can of course be dropped.

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by leni536 on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:12PM (#41010003)
Because a security software shouldn't be able to cause a kernel panic, but if it can, then the kernel component should be rock solid.
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by KolmogorovComp on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:05PM (#41009917)
because it took down half the world?
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by rvnx on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:23PM (#41010133)
and it shows that the deployment process was not under control and that something malicious could have happened as well
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by matkoniecz on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:19PM (#41010082)
Which part seems dubious to you?
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by jacurtis on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:17PM (#41010056)
That is how all of these tools are. I have always told people that third-party virus scanners are just viruses that we are ok with having. They slow down our computers, reduce our security, many of them have keyloggers in them (to detect other keyloggers). We just trust them more than we trust unknown ones so we give it over to them.

CloudStrike is a little broader of course. But yeah, its a rootkit that we trust to protect us from other rootkits. Its like fighting fire with fire.

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by fsloth on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:19PM (#41010075)
100%
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by rvnx on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:36PM (#41010242)
It's like when you are using Wiz. You give your most secret files to former Israeli intelligence officers, and hope for the best.

It doesn't really make your data "more secure" or "private".

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by Angostura on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:37PM (#41010260)
See also hosted VPN companies
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by jiggawatts on Friday July 19, 2024 @05:26PM (#41011510)
This is the same argument as saying the government is just the biggest gang — a mafia with uniforms.
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by mikelitoris on Saturday July 20, 2024 @12:03AM (#41013939)
Which is... true?
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by fsloth on Saturday July 20, 2024 @03:31AM (#41014780)
The government metaphor is apt. Someone has overall authority over your compute and data on your PC. In general I would view the OS as the government.
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by isaacremuant on Saturday July 20, 2024 @05:38AM (#41015255)
Very well put. Compliance over actual ops or security.
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by rincebrain on Friday July 19, 2024 @02:04PM (#41009270)
If you realize something horrific, your options are to decide it's not your problem (and feel guilty when it blows up), carefully forget you learned it, or try to do something to get it changed.

Since the last of these involves overcoming everyone else's shared distress in admitting the emperor has no clothes, and the first of these involves a lot of distress for you personally, a lot of people opt for option B.

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by __MatrixMan__ on Friday July 19, 2024 @02:19PM (#41009416)
> overcoming everyone else's shared distress in admitting the emperor has no clothes

I don't disagree, but why do we do we react this way? Doesn't knowing the emperor has no clothes instill a bit of hope that things can change? I feel for the people who were impacted by this, but I'm also a little bit excited. Like... NOW can we fix it? Please?

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by rincebrain on Friday July 19, 2024 @02:49PM (#41009757)
The problem is, making noise incurs risk.

The higher up in large organizations you go, in politics or employment or w/e, the more what matters is not facts, but avoiding being visibly seen to have made a mistake, so you become risk-averse, and just ride the status quo unless it's an existential threat to you or something you can capitalize on for someone else's misjudgment.

So if you can't directly gain from pointing out the emperor's missing clothes, there's no incentive to call it out, there's active risk to calling it out if other people won't agree, and moreover, this provides an active incentive for those with political capital in the organization to suppress the embarrassment of anyone pointing out they did not admit the problem everyone knew was there.

(This is basically how you get the "actively suppress any exceptions to people collectively treating something as a missing stair" behaviors.)

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by galangalalgol on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:10PM (#41009966)
I've not seen that at my fortune 100. I found other's willing to agree and we walked it up to the most senior evp in the corporation. Got face time andbwe weren't punished. Just, nothing changed. Some of the directors that helped walk it up the chain eventually became more powerful and the suggested actions took place about 15 years later.
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by rincebrain on Saturday July 20, 2024 @01:48AM (#41014378)
Sure, I've certainly seen exceptions, and valued them a lot.

But often, at least in my experience, exceptions are limited in scope to whatever part of the org chart the person who is the exception is in charge of, and then that still governs everything outside of that box...

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by Bluestein on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:17PM (#41010051)
And, another problem, if I may: This, too will be soon forgotten. Our "attention cycle" is too short.-

(Look all the recent, severe supply chain attacks by state actors, and how soon they have been displaced off-focus ...)

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by __MatrixMan__ on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:18PM (#41010065)
So if we want our technology to be more reliable, we need to make its current unreliability into an existential threat to certain people?

I mean, it already is to some people, as shown elsewhere in this thread. Seems like it's the wrong people though.

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by johnklos on Friday July 19, 2024 @02:34PM (#41009626)
It's a nice idea, but has that worked historically? Some people will make changes, but I think we'd be naive to think that things will change in any large and meaningful way.

Having another I-told-you-so isn't so bad, though - it does give us IT people a little more latitude when we tell people that buying the insecurity fix du jour increases work and adds more problems than it addresses.

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by __MatrixMan__ on Friday July 19, 2024 @02:44PM (#41009713)
Sure, on long enough timescales. I mean, there's less lead in the environment than there used to be. We don't practice blood letting anymore. Things change. Eventually enough will be enough and we'll start using systems that are transparent about what their inputs are and have a way of operating in cases where the user disables one of those inputs because it's causing problems (e.g. crowdstrike updates).

I'd just like it to be soon because I'm interested in building such systems and I'd rather be paid to do so instead of doing it on my off time.

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by Bluestein on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:22PM (#41010118)
> We don't practice blood letting anymore. Things change

Gonna make me a Tshirt outta this :)

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by AmpsterMan on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:19PM (#41010077)
Going off of that framework:

Because doing three requires convincing a bunch of people that are currently doing number two, to do number one instead.

Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by HPsquared on Friday July 19, 2024 @02:09PM (#41009314)
Option C is to quietly distance yourself from it.
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by yawnxyz on Friday July 19, 2024 @02:53PM (#41009794)
there are way too many horrific things in the world to learn about... and then realizing you can't do something about every of those things. But at least you can tackle one of them! (In my case, antibiotic resistance)
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by cchance on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:20PM (#41010097)
My issue is WTF do sooooooo many companies trust this 1 fucking company lol, like its always some obscure company that every major corporation is trusting lol. All because crowdstrike apparently throws good parties for C-Level execs lol
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by Bluestein on Friday July 19, 2024 @03:12PM (#41009999)
Again, as I feel I must every time Connections is mentioned: That series is an unmitigated masterpiece. It really is ...
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by keeganpoppen on Friday July 19, 2024 @05:23PM (#41011472)
Nassim Taleb is having a good day
Re:Windows Bluescreen and Boot Loops (update: caused by a Cr... by eviks on Friday July 19, 2024 @11:54PM (#41013906)
Except this is not that, good and known practices exist against these kind of fails, and are used by others.