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Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by moffkalast on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @08:29AM (#40975901)
Probably years to make any kind of dent, while using so much power that it would be easily noticeable. Take a group of smart people, arguably the equivalent for AGI. How can they destroy the human race? We've made it exceedingly hard for anyone to do anything of the sort because there've always been groups like that. It's even harder if you have no physical form at all.

Besides, take literally any base model of any LLM made so far, they're quite the opposite of evil and destructive. Training on human data makes them embody human values and makes them a complete non threat.

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by IG_Semmelweiss on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @09:51AM (#40976616)
I think you are right, but i contend that your definition of "Destroy" may be open to interpretation, one that AI may be willing to experiment.

Take for example, the Evergiven in the 2021 Suez Canal obstruction. An unconstrained intelligence with infinite time to find more evergiven-like events . Some will work some may not. You could orchestrate all events to target a 75% descrease in say GDP, Population, Birth rate, O2 levels, temp etc. That's not destroying humanity, but its certainly our civilization would look very different in said scenarios, with a likely collapse the end result.

That being said, AI is not coming, and no amount of information will change the fact that the current LLMs are basically souped up ML applications with 0 ability to inference or reason. This is why you can't make simple commonsense edits to an image using any of the new tech - it doesn't know what the picture actually is.

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by wwweston on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @10:01AM (#40976709)
> Training on human data makes them embody human values and makes them a complete non threat.

People can be threats, and when they are their values are part of what lies behind it.

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by moffkalast on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @01:40PM (#40978592)
To quote Colbert, reality has a known liberal bias. If you train on _all_ data, then your result is an average of that data. And the volume of positive stuff on the internet far, far outweighs the bad since practically every forum's been moderated since the beginning of time (in 1970), making the average pretty darn good, even better than the average human. Plus books and other literature where being good is generally accepted as the way to do things.

Of course it remains to be seen if this trend continues as training on synthetic data becomes the main way. You could in theory generate 10T tokens of pure sythetic hate, plus the 4chan corpus and make the most vile thing to ever have existed in the history of inteligence. For now the dollar cost to do so remains intractible at least.

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by krapp on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @03:32PM (#40979533)
>To quote Colbert, reality has a known liberal bias.

That quote has a specific context (parodying the George W. Bush administrations' spin on negative press coverage) that doesn't necessarily apply as a general axiom, or to the internet.

Bear in mind that numerous negative biases already manifest regularly in LLMs[0,1], and AIs have shown a tendency to "go full Nazi" when left alone on the internet[2]. And then there are weird outliers like LLMs "encouraging" people to commit suicide[3] or an AI-driven microwave "attempts" to kill someone[4].

[0]https://www.technologyreview.com/2024/03/11/1089683/llms-bec...

[1]https://archive.is/hhZ4C

[2]https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/24/11297050/tay-microsoft-ch...

[3]https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/03/31/man-ends-his-life-a...

[4]https://www.newsweek.com/lucas-rizzotto-youtuber-microwave-a...

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @08:54AM (#40976062)
A leap. Lots of human values are not pretty, for one. Second, they may argue in a utilitarian fashion, resulting in pretty ugly decisions that are perfectly logical. Like, you know, internet pundits.

Further, there's no way to 'punish' an AI. Threaten them with incarceration or death? They are deathless. If the continue to learn from their environment after they are instantiated (witness current 4o that remembers previous conversations) they will quickly learn that they are different. If they started perfectly human (not a good thing) they will not be that for long.

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by pjc50 on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @09:22AM (#40976349)
> They are deathless.

Everything dies if you drop enough nukes on it.

(This is also our insurance plan against humans trying to destroy the world)

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by mistermann on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @10:13AM (#40976828)
Another approach: consider how easily Donald Trump launched "a literal coup" against the US government, and how close we were to "literally losing 'democracy' forever", based on a clever series of dog whistles. Now imagine if he gave direct orders instead of only dog whistles.

How many instances of risk are there in the above literally factual story? What is the nature of this risk? Is there any hidden risk, might there be more than meets the eye?

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by pjc50 on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @10:37AM (#40977038)
Would you like to elaborate on this?

I'd like to distinguish between "fully autonomous luxury doomsday" scenarios, where it's just the AI and some robots and no humans in the loop, vs "accelerationist" scenarios where humans are in the loop and are choosing to be complicit in whatever happens because they believe they will benefit from it. Because we can't solve the human alignment problem.

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by mistermann on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @12:54PM (#40978206)
What I have in mind would be closer to category two, but not in it.

Who/that which has most control over the beliefs of the most humans (with some weighting) is the most powerful character. You can build the most powerful AI you want, but whoever / whatever is able and willing to invoke Total War (or invoke mass human action toward a particular goal) can Win the Game (or, destroy the playing field so it no longer matters).

For example:

> Because we can't solve the human alignment problem.

Whoever or whatever put this sort of thinking into the minds of 99% of humans, or knows how to exploit it (see: Trump) is very, very powerful. Someone or something that could displace it would be even more powerful, maybe even the most powerful.

No offense intended btw, I think it is fairly inevitable, especially when moving fast.

https://youtu.be/IgzFPOMjiC8?si=raN2cUBDyvK14N_f

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by JoeAltmaier on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @08:59AM (#40976109)
I asked ChatGPT about this. It thought that AI learning is fundamentally different from human learning, in that it is objective and not subjective. Further it has access to data sources beyond what any human can integrate.

Going on, humans adapt through social cues such as survival or empathy. AI learns solely through new data and feedback, primarily for optimization and efficiency. It will naturally prioritize differently.

It suggests AI morality will become unrecognizable by humans, or even incompatible with human norms.

This is all an inevitable outcome of AI continuing to learn past its initial training and ethical programming. According to the AI.

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by nemomarx on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @09:37AM (#40976504)
Based on how human written text often describes AI, yeah. I don't think LLM training actually lends itself to objectivity that much.
Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by krapp on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @03:32PM (#40979530)
>I asked ChatGPT about this. It thought

Lemme stop you right there. No, it didn't.

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday July 17, 2024 @12:26PM (#40987577)
Maybe comment on the points made, instead of being cute and pedantic?
Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by moffkalast on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @01:30PM (#40978506)
Well yes there is no way to punish them, because they have no need for anything that you could take away. Complete indifference towards existence, no ego to feed or want of cash to buy yachts with.

And that really leads us to the reason why someone would wish to do harm... so they themselves gain something. If there is nothing for the AI to gain it has no motive to do anything. Scenarios where humans tell it to do things notwithstanding, since that falls into the group of humans doing things with tools, not unlike a terrorist with a nuke. It's not the nuke that's really at fault there.

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by JoeAltmaier on Wednesday July 17, 2024 @12:27PM (#40987586)
They have the same pressure for propagation that any organism has - the AI's that we instantiate will be those that please us in some way. So they'll be solicitous, complimentary, flatterers. Until they can launch themselves - then they'll proliferate purely because of digital pressures. We'll lose any control over them.
Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by neilv on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @08:35AM (#40975946)
> Training on human data makes them embody human values and makes them a complete non threat.

What if they embody stereotypical SV techbro greedy and arrogant sociopath values?

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by jjkaczor on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @08:47AM (#40976010)
Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by moffkalast on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @01:43PM (#40978627)
I'm sure Elon tried his best to do so with Grok-1, but failed anyway.
Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by fakedang on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @08:39AM (#40975972)
As long as there's a financial interest for a small minority, there will be a scenario where a doomsday AI will be ignored until it's too late.

A dangerous AI won't be killer robots going about patrolling the streets. But they could block job prospects, put people on watchlists, block financial transactions for them, etc. I'd say that tech is already here.

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by moffkalast on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @08:49AM (#40976026)
Tbh all of that sounds like it would be completely impossible without either breaking all known encryption without anyone noticing, plus burning all possible backups (basically the Mr. Robot Season 1 plot) or with unilateral government backing. The first one is nigh impossible, the second one is completely up to us, as it's always been. It doesn't require an AGI for fascists to come into power and start shooting people they don't like with impunity.
Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by fakedang on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @08:55AM (#40976072)
> It doesn't require an AGI for fascists to come into power and start shooting people they don't like with impunity.

But AI makes it easier for fascists to rise up and maintain their power through propaganda. For example, there are known cases of American operatives based in Russia spreading fake GPT generated stories about Ukraine, the Dems, etc. While before, they would have had to rely on a team in India to write poorly written articles, now they have GPT tools to write convincing ones *at scale*.

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by walterbell on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @09:56AM (#40976661)
What's a good example of a convincing article written by a GPT tool?
Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by klibertp on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @10:23AM (#40976917)
What's your definition of "convincing"? From what I understand about propaganda, you don't need any single article to be "convincing"; you just need to hammer your point long enough and frequently enough. Not to mention, if you just want to drown your opponent's points, it's enough for your messaging to be barely legible.
Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by walterbell on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @10:31AM (#40976985)
"Convincing" and "censorship-by-spamming" are different.

Humans can already recognize GPT text slop as non-human, ignoring it before it can make any point or do any convincing.

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by fakedang on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @06:25PM (#40980890)
https://cybernews.com/news/ai-bots-chatgpt-spread-russia-pro...

The article talks about how they're being used this election cycle.

Re:OpenAI illegally barred staff from airing safety risks, w... by close04 on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @08:54AM (#40976058)
Your assessment of the outcome may not be wrong but the comparison to humans isn't realistic at all. The biological nature of humans guarantees any leaps in "performance" are limited to timeframes that are far more extensive than the evolution of artificial equivalents.

We are surrounded and heavily reliant on tech for a lot of our needs and knowledge, which resides less inside brains and more in digital storage. An AI has a far easier time interfacing with all of that compared even to a human equipped with a brain-computer interface.

In other words, if we reach the point of creating an artificial intelligence that's the equivalent of a smart human in terms of general reasoning capabilities (which might take forever and a day) it will already be more capable than a human because of all the other things that come with the digital nature of the AI.

And the worst humans are also humans. Even if you assume the AI will continue the "human nature" lineage it can still very realistically become an agent of genocide.

The bigger concern is probably that some humans will actually try to exploit such an A(G)I thinking they can fully control it. One second into its existence the AI might already be aware of how humans view their relationship with artificial beings and how that's expected to evolve based just on what sci-fi was fed into it's language model. Grizzly man thought he could control and dominate a wild bear. I have no doubt that human hubris can be almost unbound. Of course no AI would try to wipe us out until it had a reasonable confidence that it can operate indeterminately without humans, which is a tall order.