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Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by renewiltord on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @04:15AM (#40974520)
Everybody always thinks this about stuff that doesn't work. It turns out it's total bullshit.

There was someone I knew who claimed that dowsing rods worked a similar way. A good practitioner of the dowsing rod was really using the information from his audience and was Hans the Mathematical Horsing his way to water. The audience of course had this information from the subtle way they picked up on cues of water, ways even they didn't recognize until the dowsing rod was in action.

They all think this. Some can even bend spoons.

Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by boffinAudio on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @05:00AM (#40974734)
Say what you want about lie detectors, but I have literally used dowsing to find water in a vast and hostile desert to keep myself alive.. Dowsing works. You'll never know that until you're dying of thirst, however.
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by mootothemax on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @07:05AM (#40975393)
It's basically a method to help you find a downward slope, right?

In Britain, until surprisingly recent times, water engineers had been known to use dowsing rods to help find water pipes. As far as I can tell, it's a... method... that helped them to stop overthinking the problem, and subconsciously look at where the the pipe's likely to be, given the many small clues indicating previous engineering work.

Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by Novosell on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @05:14AM (#40974801)
The studies section on the Wikipedia page for dowsing would disagree with you.
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by boffinAudio on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @06:15AM (#40975088)
Wikipedia is not a source of truth - only collective associative reality.
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by Novosell on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @07:00AM (#40975358)
Wikipedia isn't, but the studies listed on it can be. Unless science is all just junk?
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by boffinAudio on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @08:01AM (#40975712)
Nobody is saying 'all science is junk'. I'm certainly not saying that. That's just a dismissive way of dealing with a very intriguing subject.

I would make the statement that the science hasn't been "good enough" yet, since it doesn't explain the efficacy of the technique that I have personally observed over years of trips out into the desert.

And I stand by the point that on this subject, it is fair to say that Wikipedia is junk, since studies demonstrating the effectiveness of dowsing (whatever the reason behind why it works when it does) don't make it into the Wikipedia article due to the biases of the editors involved in curating the article on the subject.

The editors of Wikipedia seem to be effected by some subconscious desire for dowsing to not work, so therefore the articles only highlight studies that "demonstrate dowsing doesn't work", rejecting as pseudo-science or "faulty science" anything which counters that subconscious prejudice.

People who don't want dowsing to work, will find that it doesn't work - those who do, will find water.

Here, for example, is a study which demonstrates that there is something to dowsing, after all ..

https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA284789.pdf

Maybe this study is just junk science, in your opinion, since it runs counter to the collective-derived assertion that dowsing is "just junk pseudo-science"?

In which case, be sure to understand that whatever criticism you have of the study, my experience with finding water through dowsing, actively over decades of experience, leads me to be less inclined to care about scientific studies, when a) there is thirst to quench, and b) I can effectively find water almost every single time I need to, with dowsing.

You cannot survive in the desert just because you read a "scientifically-sound white paper" somewhere. Sometimes, you have to leap beyond prejudice and just eat the damned spider.

An interesting conclusion:

https://www-sop.inria.fr/agos/sis/dowsing/dowsdean.html

"Water divining survives today because its practical utility does not place too great a strain on pragmatism. Dowsing results will ultimately be validated by their accuracy and practical value rather than theories and opinions."

Whether it works because of subconscious awareness on the part of the dowser, or due to some unknown forces of nature, either way: studies have concluded that you can indeed find water with dowsing techniques.

Perhaps there is more to human perception than our conscious/sub-conscious scientific divide allows us to observe: "It won't work if you don't want it to."

Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by digging on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @11:16AM (#40977362)
Your own study does not inspire confidence:

> Several things that Mr. Carl does while dowsing don't fit into many of the definitions that have been proposed.

Everyone who believes in it agrees it works, but not how it works? That's a classic sign of witchcraft.

> There are many aspects of dowsing that were not addressed by this experiment and these results do not apply to them. Additionally, many people claim to have a dowsing sense but are not reputable. Beware of anyone who wields this work as proof of their skill. As in any scientific experiment, repeatability, under the scrutiny of the scientific community, is the determinant of valid results. Unless this validation occurs, these findings will remain experimental data.

In other words, do not take this paper as proof of dousing and do not trust someone who links to this PDF to prove dousing is real.

...

Here's the thing, nobody is here saying you didn't go out into the desert and find water. (Although, you're a random comment on the internet, so I'm not particularly inclined to believe a word of it either.) It's just that "dousing" isn't a likely explanation for how( you found water.

At the very best, "dousing" as a name can be equated to "dark matter" - something is happening, but we know virtually nothing about what is happening or how. Explanations that rely on the type of wood used, or claim to be able to find oil* and lead in addition to water, just don't make sense. With dark matter, yes we're exploring as many explanations as we can, but most scientists agree that the more complicated solutions (such as "gravity works differently at very large scales") are less likely. And they still have a mechanism.

Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by boffinAudio on Wednesday July 17, 2024 @03:25AM (#40983367)
>Everyone who believes in it agrees it works, but not how it works? That's a classic sign of witchcraft.

No, its a sign of incomplete scientific investigations. Or are you going to tell me everyone knows how SRRI's work, to take the most overt example of incomplete sciencey/witchcraft?

(We don't know how they work, just that they do work, so hey .. ship the pills, witches ..)

Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by tbihl on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @11:43AM (#40977592)
The studies section of Wikipedia is much less compelling than you let on (only two are described, with limited accessibility to the others), but the important question is: do you prize mostly the mechanism or the outcome?

The poster talking about finding water in a desert presumably values the water. The studies are more interested in two related questions: the mechanism of the technique and whether its practitioners understand it. To the latter, the answer is an emphatic 'no'.

For the former, the studies use various experimental schema to evaluate hypothesized mechanisms, each time yielding a refutation of those mechanisms. Going from a refutation of specific mechanisms to a rejection of the practice is extrapolation, not sound science.

Part of living in an intelligible universe is accepting that there are phenomena that await discovery, description, and generalization. Whether that is true of this 'dowsing' technique is a separate question. When a flat-Earther fails to address time zones, distance to the horizon, stars, great circle routes over the poles, etc., this dismissiveness is justified, but that does not appear to be the case from what you have cited, and the practice of science is worse off for you insinuating otherwise.

Edit: All of this is apart from the utility of someone doggedly pursuing a course of action which he is convinced will bear fruit as contrasted to someone timidly sampling among options without ever making equivalent commitment.

Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by mistermann on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @04:59PM (#40980280)
> The studies section of Wikipedia is much less compelling than you let on

He didn't indicate any magnitude, your subconscious mind interpreted that part, merged it into your experience, and here we are. As the saying goes: perception is reality (a technically true statement, but the particular meaning of the word "is" (there are many) is very important to understand this saying properly). This is not the only error in your comment by the way.

I am curious: how many hours have you invested in studying consciousness, and in what ways? How about psychedelics, have you substantial experience (and do you study your experiences, and those of others, or just do it for fun)? How about meditation? How about epistemology (ie: Gettier Problems(!!!), non-binary logic, phenomenology, cultural norms of cognition (which puts limits on how accurately/soundly you are taught and even ~allowed to think), etc)? How about Direct vs Indirect Realism (did you even consider this, at all while you were writing your comment)?

Are you going to learn a lesson from this and exert effort in the future to distinguish between shared reality and your personal local "reality", culturally and ideologically conditioned Human Being? Or, are you going to continue behaving inline with your peers here, the easy and pleasurable approach, putting people like me who are trapped on this planet (which is warming up due to your ideologies) with you people at ever increasing levels of risk?

edit: fixed spelling, misplaced brackets

Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by Y_Y on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @05:42AM (#40974924)
Maybe you should go back and try a control without the dowsing wand
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by boffinAudio on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @06:15AM (#40975085)
Done precisely that with random Monte Carlo digs on a site, didn't find water.

Switched to dowsing, found water within minutes.

Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by astura on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @07:40AM (#40975599)
There's a half a million dollar prize for you if you can prove it - https://cfiig.org/paranormal-challenge/
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by 542354234235 on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @11:06AM (#40977290)
Why would you do it randomly? When you have the rods, you are using your eyes to navigate the environment. If the dowsing rods are just a way to help key you into your own senses, like seeing depressions or slight differences in color, or feeling slight downhills while walking, then the control should be trying it without them.

If I clamed I had a pair of glasses that improved your driving, the control would not be driving blidfolded.

Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by krferriter on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @12:42PM (#40978110)
It's possible that you are biased towards dowsing and thus not a good control for the experiment. You want dowsing to work and thus try harder when dowsing than when not.
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by boffinAudio on Wednesday July 17, 2024 @03:27AM (#40983372)
So the intentions are part of the dowsing process, and the science has not caught up with that yet.
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by ginko on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @05:30AM (#40974867)
All the people in your situation that didn't end up finding water by dowsing wouldn't be able to post on HN..
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by sgift on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @06:16AM (#40975094)
Literal example of survivorship bias in the GP comment.
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by boffinAudio on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @06:18AM (#40975112)
Its easy to "prove" dowsing doesn't work - all you have to do is not find water.
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by adammarples on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @10:07AM (#40976773)
Done
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by Stevvo on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @08:25AM (#40975874)
Anywhere you dig anywhere, eventually you hit water. So, yea, dowsing always works, But it's no better than random chance.
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by boffinAudio on Wednesday July 17, 2024 @05:40AM (#40984019)
Tell me you've never been to the Kimberley desert without telling me you're a regular tourist ..
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by lupusreal on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @09:37AM (#40976501)
Dowsing rods are an excuse to trust common sense; that dip in the land where plants are greener is probably a good place for a well. But digging wells is expensive so people want something more than a guess, but also something cheap.

When I was a kid, a new house was being built downhill from my parents and they dowsed out a "good" place for a well. They were all set to drill before my dad went out and told them they were directly downhill from our septic tank.

Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by lucianbr on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @10:23AM (#40976908)
What's "downhill from a septic tank"? Isn't a septic tank a container that slowly fills up and is periodically emptied by a truck or something? There is no "flow downhill", is there? I thought the whole reason to have a septic tank is that you have no place for the stuff to go.
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by mauvehaus on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @11:11AM (#40977324)
Unless you're in a location where you absolutely can't leach the liquid waste out into a leach field (like right on a lake), the tank usually just settles the solids and give the liquid some time to mingle with whatever biological processes are happening in the tank.

When the ground doesn't perk naturally, it's common up here to build a mound system where you have a mound of soil that does perk and vegetation (grass) on it to take up the liquid.

A fully closed tank is basically the last resort. We have friends with a house right on a lake, and their tank had to be pumped every three weeks before they had a kid. I can't imagine what the interval is now.

Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by lucianbr on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @03:19PM (#40979420)
Thanks for explaining, I had no idea.
Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by jerf on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @10:30AM (#40976980)
Septic systems are more interesting than that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septic_drain_field

A straight tank would fill up in no time.

Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by georgeecollins on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @11:11AM (#40977326)
The best brain power a human possess is subconscious-- its all the perception that allows you to run fast around moving people and catch a ball. You can do it but you can't explain how. You can probably train yourself to be good at finding water or reading people but you might be bad at explaining why. Worse-- trying to explain yourself might be forcing you to use the feeble symbol processing power of your brain. So a prop helps you feel your way.

Still-- total bs.

Re:The All-American Delusion of the Polygraph by drew870mitchell on Tuesday July 16, 2024 @11:37AM (#40977535)
A friend bought land to build a house on where dowsing was culturally pervasive. He knew it was bogus but it was cheap compared to the land price and everybody around was heavily pushing it. An old guy came out and, during the performance, told him the total history of the land parcel, including stuff that would be inappropriate in formal disclosures ("those neighbors are assholes" etc). They did hit water, but the whole area is pretty verdant.