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Re:I Received an AI Email by sph on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @03:36AM (#40863648)
People cry about Bitcoin's energy usage now, imagine the amount of energy burned to create next-level spam with "AI".

Flame me all you want, but this is one case where Bitcoin is much more useful than LLM. If it doesn't create value, as its naysayers claim, at least it allows exchanging value. LLMs on the other hand, burn electricity to actively destroy the Internet's value, for the profit of inept and greedy drones.

Re:I Received an AI Email by throwaway0665 on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @03:45AM (#40863702)
Bitcoin has one application where as there are multiple applications of LLMs. There might be mountains of noxious AI spam but it's hard to claim that Bitcoin as a technology is more useful.
Re:I Received an AI Email by freehorse on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:08AM (#40864145)
It is not about the quantity of the applications, but about the value they bring to society. If it is about spamming and advertising we are even talking about negative value, actually.
Re:I Received an AI Email by bbarnett on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:14AM (#40864175)
So far, I haven't seen a useful application of LLMs. So far.

I've seen things that are wildly hobbled, and wildly inaccurate. I've seen endless companies running around, trying to improve on things. I've seen people looking in wonder at LLMs making mistakes 2 year olds don't.

Most LLM usage seems to be in two categories. Replace people's jobs with wildly inaccurate and massively broken output, or trick people into doing things.

I'd have to say Bitcoin is far more useful than LLMs. You have to add the pluses, and subtract the minuses, and in that view, LLMs are -1 billion, and bitcoin is maybe a 1 or 2.

Re:I Received an AI Email by k8sagic on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:18AM (#40864208)
AI is not just LLMs. AlphaFold for example moved a critical goal post for everyone of us.

bitcoin is only negative. It consumes terrawatts of energy for nothing.

Re:I Received an AI Email by HermanMartinus on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:30AM (#40864276)
And even if it were just LLMs, I use LLMs in my workflow every single day, and I've never used a/the blockchain except for some mild speculation around 2017.
Re:I Received an AI Email by brabel on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @06:35AM (#40864640)
> So far, I haven't seen a useful application of LLMs. So far.

What?! Whole industries have been changed already due to products based on them. I don't think there's a single developer who is not using AI to get help while coding, and if you aren't, sorry but you're just missing out, it's not perfect but it doesn't need to be. It just needs to be better than StackOverflow and googling around for the docs or how to do things and ending up in dubious sites, and it absolutely is.

My wife is a researcher and has to read LOTS of papers. Letting AI summarize it has made her enormously more efficient at filtering out what she needs to go into more detail.

Generating relevant images for blog posts is now so easy to do (you may not like it, but as an author who used to use irrelevant photos before instead, I love it when you use it tastefully).

Seriously, I can't even believe someone in 2024 can say there has not been useful applications of LLMs (almost all AI now is based on LLMs as far as I know) with a straight face.

Re:I Received an AI Email by pseudalopex on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @07:06AM (#40864788)
> I don't think there's a single developer who is not using AI to get help while coding

You are in a bubble.

> It just needs to be better than StackOverflow and googling around for the docs or how to do things and ending up in dubious sites, and it absolutely is.

Subjectively. Not absolutely.

Re:I Received an AI Email by commodoreboxer on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @09:10AM (#40865634)
> I don't think there's a single developer who is not using AI to get help while coding

It's banned at my company due to copyright concerns. Company policy at the moment considers it a copyright landmine. It does need to be "perfect" at not being a legal liability at the very least.

And the blog post image thing is not a great point. AI images for blog posts, on the whole, are still quite terrible and immediately recognizable as AI generated slop. I usually click out of articles immediately when I see an AI image at the top, because I expect the rest of the article to be in line: low value, high fluff.

There are useful LLM applications, but for things that play to its strengths. It's effectively a search engine. Using it for search and summarization is useful. Using it to generate code based on code it has read would be useful if it weren't for the copyright liability, and I would argue that if you have that much boilerplate, the answer is better abstractions, libraries, and frameworks, rather than just generating that code stochastically. Imagine if the answer to assembly language being verbose was to just generate all of it rather than creating compiled programming languages.

Re:I Received an AI Email by whiplash451 on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:25AM (#40864245)
There is one clear (albeit somewhat boring) application of LLM: data extraction from structured documents.

That field has made a leap forward with LLMs.

Positive impact on society includes automated extraction in healthcare pipelines.

Re:I Received an AI Email by bbarnett on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @06:00AM (#40864444)
Healthcare pipelines! All well and good until hallucinations cause death or what not!

And why is this better than employing a human. Or reducing complexity. It's not as if human wages are what causes hyper expensive US healthcare costs.

This seems like a negative.

Re:I Received an AI Email by whiplash451 on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @06:50AM (#40864711)
Right now there is no human, the data just goes nowhere (i.e. it is not used).

At some point we need to be optimistic and look for incremental progress.

Re:I Received an AI Email by immibis on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:42AM (#40864342)
Unstructured*
Re:I Received an AI Email by whiplash451 on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:59AM (#40864440)
No, I really meant structured. Extracting data from structured documents is surprisingly hard when you need very high accuracy.

What I mean by structured is: invoices, documents containing tables, etc.

Extracting useful data from fully unstructured content is very hard IMO and potentially above the capacity of LLMs (depending on your definition of "useful" and "unstructured")

Re:I Received an AI Email by bbarnett on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @06:04AM (#40864465)
But this is why I made my complexity statement in my other reply.

Why are firms sending around invoices, tables instead of parseable data. Oh I know the argument, because "so hard to cooperate" on standards, etc.

Madness.

Re:I Received an AI Email by projektfu on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @07:27AM (#40864926)
Partly because the standards, such as X12, have a high startup cost to use them, they aren't very opinionated about the actual content, and you have to get the counterparty on board to use them.
Re:I Received an AI Email by Tainnor on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @08:50AM (#40865467)
I'm as skeptical about LLMs as anyone, especially when people use them for actual precision tasks (like coding), but what they actually IMHO are good at are language tasks. That is, summarising content, text generation for sufficiently formulaic tasks, even translation to an extent, and similar things.
Re:I Received an AI Email by yazantapuz on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @07:41AM (#40865008)
Well, a friend of mine built its house thanks to btc last's ath. Surely someone is cashing out nvidia right now. Indirectly useful :)
Re:I Received an AI Email by stavros on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @03:48AM (#40863719)
This is what spam always did, why is it different now?
Re:I Received an AI Email by rwmj on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @04:17AM (#40863858)
It actually adds some cost to the spammer, so that could be good.
Re:I Received an AI Email by justsomehnguy on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @04:31AM (#40863939)
Sending spam is... very energy efficient, compared to the LLM usage.
Re:I Received an AI Email by stavros on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @04:37AM (#40863976)
Yep, and thus very cheap, the exact thing you don't want spam to be.
Re:I Received an AI Email by sph on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @07:18AM (#40864869)
You didn't need a GPU to generate Cialis spam.
Re:I Received an AI Email by TeMPOraL on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @04:22AM (#40863891)
Bitcoin is literally turning greed into money, by means of wasting exponentially increasing amounts of electricity. It doesn't just not create value - to be able to allow exchanging value, it fundamentally requires ever increasing waste, as the waste is what gives its mathematical guarantees.

LLMs deliver value. Right here today, to countless people across countless jobs. Sure, some of that is marketing, but that's not LLM's fault - marketing is what it always has been, it's just people waking up from their Stockholm syndrome. You've always been screwed over by marketers, and Internet has already been destroyed by adtech. Adding AI into the mix doesn't change anything, except maybe that some of the jobs in this space will go away, which for once I say - good riddance. There are more honest forms of gainful employment.

LLMs, for all their costs, don't burn energy superlinearly. More important, for LLMs, just like for fiat money, and about everything else other than crypto, burning electricity is a cost, upkeep, that is being aggressively minimized. More efficient LLMs benefit everyone involved. More efficient crypto just stops working, because inefficient waste is fundamental to cryptos' mathematical guarantees.

Anyway, comparing crypto and LLMs is dumb. The only connection is that they both eat GPUs and their novelty periods were close together in time. But they're fundamentally different, and the hypes surrounding them are fundamentally different too. I'd say that "AI hype" is more like the dot-com bubble: sure, lots of grifters lost their money, but who cares. Technology was good; the bubble cleared out nonsense and grift around it.

Re:I Received an AI Email by Rattled on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:07AM (#40864137)
Well said, too many people conflate AI and crypto, and dismiss both without understanding either. Crypto has demonstrated very limited benefit compared to its cost, exchanging value has been a solved problem for millenia. We're only beginning to understand what can be done with LLMs but we can see some limits. Although it causes some harm to say it doesn't create any value is ridiculous. We can't yet see if the benefits outweigh the cost but it looks to me like they will.
Re:I Received an AI Email by sph on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @07:21AM (#40864887)
> You've always been screwed over by marketers, and Internet has already been destroyed by adtech. Adding AI into the mix doesn't change anything

This is pure, complacent nonsense. "We have always been surrounded with spam, 10x more won't change anything."

Yeah, why improve the status quo? Why improve the world? Why recycle when there's a big patch of plastic in the ocean.

It's an argument based on a nonsensical, cynical if not greedy position. "Everyone pollutes, so a little more pollution won't be noticed."

Re:I Received an AI Email by helboi4 on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @04:45AM (#40864018)
Dunno why you're being voted down, this is sort of true.
Re:I Received an AI Email by immibis on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:44AM (#40864354)
Delivering value is not the same as creating it. Spam takes lots of value from many people, destroys most of it, and delivers a small fraction to the spammers.
Re:I Received an AI Email by richrichie on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:03AM (#40864113)
> It doesn't just not create value

Value is a subjective concept. One could argue that its value is that arbitrary quantities of it cannot be created by dictat.

> - to be able to allow exchanging value, it fundamentally requires ever increasing waste, as the waste is what gives its mathematical guarantees.

One could argue that it takes a lot worse to maintain any currency such as USD as a currency. Full force of government law enforcement will be unleashed on you if you decide to have your own currency. There is a lot of "wastage" that goes to safeguard currency creation and storage and to prevent counterfeiting.

I do not hold BTC. Nor do I trade it. But to discuss as if other currencies have no cost is not rational.

Re:I Received an AI Email by k8sagic on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:22AM (#40864224)
But we do know that the Proof of Stake system we currently have, is a lot cheaper and more advanced than what Bitcoin does.

Bitcoin doesn't solve any problem yet which is fundamental to our society and a fiat system like the trust issue:

If i exchange 1 bitcoin with you for any service or thing outside of the blockchain, i need the whole proof of stack system protection of our normal existing money infrastructure like lawyers, contracts etc.

And no smart contracts do not solve this issue.

What is left? Small amount of transactions per day with high fees 'but' decentralized infrastructure run by someone we all don't know aggregated probably in data centers owned by big companies.

Re:I Received an AI Email by block_dagger on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @06:15AM (#40864528)
Proof of Work is far superior to Proof of Stake in a network with absolute fairness (security) being fundamental. Satoshi himself said he could find no other way.

Compare energy spent on global hash rate to all energy spent by mining metals, physical banking, financial services middle persons, etc. if you want to talk about energy usage and make any kind of sense.

Re:I Received an AI Email by k8sagic on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @06:31AM (#40864623)
Yes, start comparing energy spend on bitcoin mining and the missing features. You will see that bitcoin already consumes a lot more energy than our proof of stake system.

What do you do when you want to exchange 1 bitcoin for 1 car and the person with the car doesn't give you the car after the 'absolut fairness/ security' of transfering bitcoin to their wallet? You go back to our Proof of Stake system. You talk to a lawyer. You expect the police to help you.

The smallest issue in our society is just transfering money from left to right. This is not a hard problem. And pls don't tell me how much easier it is to send a few bitcoins to africa. Most people don't do this and yes western union exists.

Or try to recover your bitcoins. A friend has 100k in bitcoins just doesn't know the password anymore.

What do you do when someone breaks into your home and forces you to give them your bitcoin key? Yes exactly anonyms moving of money from you to them. Untraceable, wow what a great thing to have!

And no Satoshi 'himself' is not an expert in global economy. He just invented bitcoin and you can cleary see how flawed it is.

Re:I Received an AI Email by davidgerard on Thursday July 04, 2024 @04:24AM (#40873285)
> Compare energy spent on global hash rate to all energy spent by mining metals, physical banking, financial services middle persons, etc. if you want to talk about energy usage and make any kind of sense.

you're ending up with the entire rest of civilisation on the other side of that

* Bitcoin, 0.5% of all energy use: 7 transactions per second total worldwide

* THE ENTIRE REST OF CIVILISATION AND EVERYONE IN IT AND EVERYTHING THEY DO, 199x the energy use, really quite a lot more than 1,393 transactions per second worldwide, and all the other stuff civilisation does too

What an amazing comparison for you to suggest.

Re:I Received an AI Email by richrichie on Thursday July 04, 2024 @07:08AM (#40873931)
You are not comparing apples to apples. BTC is comparable to gold or US treasuries. How often do you transact in physical gold? What is time taken from a piece of gold in your pocket to cash to coffee? However, you can transact in paper gold eg the ETF GLD in microseconds with comparatively much lower transaction costs (settlement is still not immediate). How often do you transact in treasury bonds? Try paying for a coffee with your treasury bond. Let’s see how many days that takes. Comparison with USD (ultimately representing US treasuries) on number of transactions basis is not useful.
Re:I Received an AI Email by davidgerard on Thursday July 04, 2024 @02:38PM (#40877068)
BTC is not comparable to useful things, except in the promotional posts of bitcoin fans.
Re:I Received an AI Email by richrichie on Thursday July 04, 2024 @09:54PM (#40879359)
You are probably confusing settlement time with transaction time. Do you know how credit cards work?
Re:I Received an AI Email by k8sagic on Monday July 08, 2024 @03:21AM (#40903290)
So now a cryptopro tells us that bitcoin shouldn't replace the USD?

Thats so fun because apparently everyone doing bitcoin does it for a different reason.

Anyway do you believe that when the world goes down and you need your gold, you will be able to use bitcoin?

Re:I Received an AI Email by TeMPOraL on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @12:15PM (#40867408)
> There is a lot of "wastage" that goes to safeguard currency creation and storage and to prevent counterfeiting.

Yes. But the point I'm making is, none of that benefits from waste. The waste is something everyone want to reduce. With Bitcoin, the trend is uniquely opposite, because the crypto system is secured through aggregate waste being way larger than any actor or group can afford.

Re:I Received an AI Email by davidgerard on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @06:07AM (#40864486)
I'd disagree to a large extent, because the specific similarities are important:

* the VCs are often literally the same guys pivoting

* the promoters are often literally the same guys pivoting

* AI's excuses for the ghastly electricity consumption are often literally bitcoin excuses

I think that's an excellent start on the comparison being valid.

Like, I've covered crypto skeptically for years and I was struck by just how similar the things to be said about the AI grifters were, and my readers have concurred.

Re:I Received an AI Email by ryandrake on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @11:01AM (#40866623)
Long term, LLMs are not going to create more actual value than the sum of their costs and negative externalities. Bookmark this comment and check me in 5 years.
Re:I Received an AI Email by rpigab on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:10AM (#40864154)
Yes, that's quite right.

That's why I created EtherGPT, an LLM Chat agent that runs decentralized in the Ether blockchain, on smart contracts only, to make sure that value is created and rewards directly the people and not big companies.

By providing it just a fraction of just a bit north of 10% of the current fusion reactions occuring in our sun, and giving it a decade or two on processing time and sync, you can ask it simple questions like "what do dogs do when you're not around" and it will come up with helpful answers like "they go to work in an office" or funny ones like "you should park your car in direct sunlight so that your dog can recharge its phone using solar panels".

Re:I Received an AI Email by noman-land on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:51AM (#40864392)
I'm an Ethereum fan and I found this funny.
Re:I Received an AI Email by mionhe on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:50AM (#40864384)
Another AI response, or humor from an actual person?
Re:I Received an AI Email by waciki on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @07:47AM (#40865039)
are LLMs even capable of humor? The attempts I've seen are not very funny
Re:I Received an AI Email by meiraleal on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @07:56AM (#40865086)
Something must be very wrong with someone who continuously laughs at computer jokes so I don't think it will ever reach the level you are expecting (hopefully).
Re:I Received an AI Email by k8sagic on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:17AM (#40864194)
AI solves gigantic issues and helps us with cancer, protein folding, potentially math and other studies, material science etc.

Bitcoin consumes as much energy as a country and has basically done nothing besides moving money from one group of people to a random other group of people.

And bitcoin is also motivated to find the cheapest energy independent of any ethical reasoning (taking energy from cheap chinese hydro and disrupting local energy networks) while AI will have energy from the richest companies in the world (ms, google, etc.) which already working on co2 neutral 24/7.

Re:I Received an AI Email by bergen on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:28AM (#40864263)
None of your problems in the first sentence are solved by LLMs. I do not dispute AI research and applications and their benefits, but the current LLM and GenerativeAI hype is of no value to hard scientific problems. Otherwise I agree with you.
Re:I Received an AI Email by Zambyte on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @07:50AM (#40865057)
I think the coolest counterpoint to this I have seen so far is people using generative AI to design materials with desired properties. For example, discovering new super conductors[0].

[0] https://www.jhuapl.edu/news/news-releases/230503-ai-discover...

Re:I Received an AI Email by kmacdough on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:23AM (#40864233)
The benefit is all for naught if it undermines the fabric of society at the same time. All these benefits will only go to the few who land on top of this mess.

It's continuing to widen the wealth gap as it is.

Re:I Received an AI Email by k8sagic on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:28AM (#40864258)
The wealth gap is widening while in parallel poorer people have better lives than ever.

We house, heat and give access to knowledge to a lot more people than ever before.

Cheap medical procedures through AI will help us all. The AI which will be able to analyse the x-ray picture from some 3th world country? It only needs a basic x-ray machine and some internet. The AI will be able to tell you what you have.

I'm also convinced that if AGI is happening in the next 10 years, it will affect that many people that our society has to discuss capitalisms future.

Re:I Received an AI Email by HermanMartinus on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:28AM (#40864261)
Yeah, Bitcoin is dual-edged like that. Harming people and harming the planet.
Re:I Received an AI Email by EdwardDiego on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @05:57AM (#40864426)
Which gigantic issues has it solved? Curious to know.
Re:I Received an AI Email by k8sagic on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @06:12AM (#40864512)
I actually listed them up directly after.

For example alphafold: Protein folding. It is also now used in fusion reactor plasma control

Re:I Received an AI Email by EdwardDiego on Wednesday July 03, 2024 @06:26AM (#40864595)
It didn't solve protein folding. It led to new areas of inquiry, but it didn't solve it.

May I recommend reading Derek Lowe's "In The Pipeline" blog for a realistic discussion of the actual impact of Alphafold? [0]

And seeing as we don't have viable fusion yet, saying it "solved" it is really reaching. I'm sure it's helping, but solved? No.

[0]: https://www.science.org/topic/blog-category/ai-and-machine-l...