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Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by alfalfasprout on Monday June 10, 2024 @07:06PM (#40640320)
You're also putting Europe on a pedestal. In many urban areas (where the majority of the population lives) it's no longer safe for kids to walk + bike to school freely. Not necessarily because of cars but significant crime.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by jasonfarnon on Monday June 10, 2024 @07:25PM (#40640487)
Is it no longer safe there? Because in the states parents have been restricting kids a lot more severely just as crime in cities plummeted (mid 90s--present). So I imagine it's either perceptions about safety, or parents just being more careful.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by immibis on Monday June 10, 2024 @08:03PM (#40640751)
It isn't no longer safe for kids to walk to school. What happened is that American internet arrived here, and it has political reasons to want everyone to think it is.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by wincy on Monday June 10, 2024 @10:10PM (#40641551)
I walked to the gas station with my dog and two kids, and had a guy yell at me that my kids were going to get kidnapped while I went inside for 5 minutes to buy us some waters and snacks. The biggest hurdle for us letting our children be free range and able to do things on their own has definitely been paranoid parents and busybodies who watched Sound of Freedom and think that every girl is going to immediately get sex trafficked to Guatemalan drug lords (or whatever, I didn't watch the movie) if she leaves her parent's sight for a second.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by eru on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:56AM (#40644400)
Wait, are you saying American internet it telling people that it's safe, or that it's unsafe?
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by immibis on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @02:53PM (#40650025)
American internet wants you to think you can only be safe in a car, with a gun, around other white cis people.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by eru on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @03:56AM (#40655645)
Interesting perspective.

As far as I can tell, American Internet mostly wants you to think that their own culture war is important and relevant universally, including for you. And that their own particular division of issues between their political poles is also somehow universal and important; and that you should get riled up about it.

Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by CalRobert on Monday June 10, 2024 @11:29PM (#40641979)
Europe is a big place, it varies widely.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by bedobi on Monday June 10, 2024 @07:39PM (#40640595)
guess what kills the most children, criminals or cars?
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by ksplicer on Monday June 10, 2024 @08:08PM (#40640788)
Exactly, what the hell is "not necessarily because of cars" supposed to mean? Or maybe it's a comment on how, despite cars being way more dangerous, parents over-focus on crime?
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by carlosjobim on Monday June 10, 2024 @10:02PM (#40641497)
At a certain maturity, kids have developed mentally enough for cars to not be a threat to them. Criminals are a whole different problem.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by bedobi on Monday June 10, 2024 @10:24PM (#40641619)
Right, no teenagers or adults die by cars, for they have developed mentally enough for cars not to be a threat to them

…Except the 40 000 who do die by car, every single year, in the US alone. Countless more injured and permanently disabled. Meanwhile criminals are indeed a whole different problem. (an imaginary one)

Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by carlosjobim on Monday June 10, 2024 @11:12PM (#40641870)
You are making my point, certainly without realizing it in your altered state of mind.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by Moldoteck on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:02AM (#40642541)
Your point was car's are no longer a problem once kids grow up which is a total bs. If you wanted to say something else, it's your fault you didn't comvey your thoughts in a proper way
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by carlosjobim on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:10AM (#40646356)
I'm not going to do your thinking for you. If you don't understand that after a certain age, cars are no more a threat to children than they are to adults – then I don't expect you to understand why and how criminals are a threat to people around them.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by Moldoteck on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:49AM (#40646822)
cars are extremely dangerous for both kids and adults. about 43 _thousand_ ppl get killed in US _per year_ and among them there are about 1200 kids younger than 14 years and about 3000 teenagers of age 13-19. The total numbers are _double_ the nr of gun related deaths(about 20+k) that don't include suicides with about 1500 kids younger than 18 killed. So yeah, I totally don't understand anything and you seem to understand a lot
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by lupusreal on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:13PM (#40648054)
Children, even teenagers, account for a very small portion of pedestrian deaths. Arguably this is because they're kept indoors, but the 20-25 age bracket is the second least likely to die as a pedestrian, despite being young and (stereotypically) dumb and reckless at that age. On the other hand, 25-35 are the most likely to get hit.

Some other interesting statistics: 25% of pedestrians killed were drunk, while only 19% of the time the driver was (these overlap, both drunk, in 6% of cases.) 3/4ths of pedestrian fatalities occur at night. 2/3rds don't occur in a crosswalk.

Take away: kids who don't drink, don't stay out at night and use crosswalks are significantly less likely to be hit.

https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/motor-vehicle/road-users/pedestr...

https://www.ghsa.org/resources/news-releases/GHSA/Ped-Spotli...

Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by bedobi on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:45PM (#40648488)
this is victim blaming IMO. people get drunk. people go out at night. people cross streets. if the physical environment doesn't take the above into account, to the point where there are countless needless and preventable deaths, the correct thing to do is to fix the environment, not say people should have been more careful.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by lupusreal on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @02:03PM (#40649479)
Victim blaming? I'm explaining that children are at less risk than the crude statistic would suggest. I think maybe you're mad about that because it undermines your intent to radically restructure society with this child pedestrian safety pretext.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by pantalaimon on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:38AM (#40644284)
What kind of criminal is out to kill kids?
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by throwaway7ahgb on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:35AM (#40645499)
It's more that as a society we have agreed to a certain amount of risk that cars bring, because they have some positive value ( risk to value ratio will be debated ).

Criminals bring 0 value and all risk. Criminals also do more than just murder.

Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by bedobi on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @11:28AM (#40647389)
Roads, cars and trucks bring a lot of value for the disabled, deliveries and emergency vehicles who really need them. What like 90% of vehicles and trips do not fit in any of those categories, and so bring zero of the value but all the harm.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by CalRobert on Monday June 10, 2024 @11:29PM (#40641980)
If only we made killing children with your car a crime.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by pmtcc on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:21AM (#40642308)
I recently lived in Portland when a teen was killed by a car in the southeast part of the city. The guy fled back to Saudi Arabia and no semblance of justice occurred. In the real world, vehicular crimes are seen as just a part of life. Consider the common term "car accident" and the absolving of responsibility it implies.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by CalRobert on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @02:12AM (#40643034)
Even your statement shows how deep the absolution of drivers is - a driver killed the kid. Though they’d face no consequences in the US either
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by ryandrake on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:12AM (#40646379)
How does the saying go? If you want to kill someone and get away with it, kill them with your car.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by eru on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:58AM (#40644403)
Alas. See the comment above, where a driver in a huge SUV got away scott-free for killing a child.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40644209

Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by CalRobert on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @07:32AM (#40645003)
I don't think if I went bird hunting where kids play and shot a kid "by accident" I'd get away with it.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by eru on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @09:44AM (#40646109)
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by adrianN on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @12:06AM (#40654399)
Intentionally killing children with your car is a crime. Playing with your phone while driving is "a tragic accident".
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by throwaway2037 on Monday June 10, 2024 @11:50PM (#40642110)

    > Not necessarily because of cars but significant crime.
I love these HN comments -- so incredibly vague. Can you be more specific about which cities? I find it hard to believe. Crime has fallen like a stone in the last 30 years in highly developed countries and their biggest cities.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by vidarh on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:58AM (#40642938)
There is however an impression in fairly substantial parts of society that it's gotten worse, and that impression might well have a greater effect than the actual rate on some people's behaviours.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by newswasboring on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:15AM (#40644493)
Can you find a source for this claim for European countries? I personally can't but maybe my scholar foo is bad.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by vidarh on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:10PM (#40648015)
For which claim? That people have an impression that things have gotten worse? You look at our recent European elections and how much of the campaigning was on law and order and the perception of the collapse of society.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by newswasboring on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @12:24PM (#40648179)
Now you are moving the goal post. And if you ask me, those are just masks for inner racism about immigrants stealing their jerbs. I live in Europe and I don't see this being a big consideration. So if I'm not hearing it from my fellows then I would need at least a survey to believe this. I've seen those surveys for US.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by vidarh on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @04:26PM (#40651068)
No, I have not moved any goalposts. I explicitly made the point that the impression is common, despite the actual numbers not supporting it. That was the entire point of my comment. I don't know what you thought you read.

And I agree it's usually about racism.

If you live in Europe, just look at the EU Parliament elections and see how the far right did. Or follow the political discourse in pretty much any European country.

If you're not hearing it, your not paying attention to pretty much any political reporting.

Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by newswasboring on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:26PM (#40653866)
If it's so common you could have linked to one report rather than write this mini essay
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by vidarh on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @06:58AM (#40656651)
If you claim not to have encountered it despite its prevalence, nothing will convince you. Especially as you already demonstrated your willingness to misinterpret what I claimed in the first place.
Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by newswasboring on Wednesday June 12, 2024 @02:38PM (#40661397)
Bro nobody is misunderstanding you. Here, this is the data about perception published for the US[1]. Now you do Europe. You're being incredibly rude here, I never said you claimed anything about actual statistics. Perception can be measured, there are companies out there who do this.

[1] https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/04/24/what-the-...

Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by throwaway7ahgb on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @08:29AM (#40645442)
Wait, the OP starts out with an even more vague claim and then a counter-point gets jumped on?

"Don't believe me go to Europe and Japan where kids are still allowed to walk"

This is the top rated comment here, the line by itself is about as ridiculous as any other. Every kid in Europe is allowed to walk to school? How is this any different that than the US?

Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by koyote on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @01:45AM (#40642841)
Please don't throw wild vague claims around without substantiating with data/sources.

Crime has decreased pretty much everywhere over the last three decades. I am sure there are pockets in the world where it hasn't, but those would be the exception.

[https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/homicide-rates-across-wes...]

Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by piva00 on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:17AM (#40644150)
Please, share your sources and what cities you are talking about.

I live in Europe and I see groups of kids hanging out by themselves all the time in many, many major cities across the continent.

Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by pantalaimon on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @05:36AM (#40644271)
I’m now curious where those urban areas are where crime is so significant, kids no longer can walk to school.

(And what kind of crime? We don’t really have lots of drive-by-shootings here, kids aren’t exactly a prime target for robberies either)

Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by ponector on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @06:37AM (#40644643)
Sounds like a false claim. Robbery of children? Human trafficking? What exactly are you talking?

I would say one off the biggest threat for pedestrians in European city are electric scooters.

Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by david-gpu on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @10:37AM (#40646664)
> I would say one off the biggest threat for pedestrians in European city are electric scooters.

How many deaths have they caused? How do those stats compare to the deaths caused by motor vehicles? Which one is more dangerous based on that data?

I have looked at local pedestrian casualty statistics and motor vehicles are by far the largest cause of injury and death in the large city where I live. I haven't even been able to find what was the last time that a cyclist or e-scooter rider killed a pedestrian. Meanwhile, cars and trucks have killed four cyclists this year alone.

Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by bedobi on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @11:29AM (#40647404)
> electric scooters

this is bullshit, cars kill and injure orders of magnitude more people in Europe than scooters do. That's not to say there's 0 issues with scooters, because there are, but focus should remain on cars, not scooters.

Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by GJim on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @11:07AM (#40647066)
> but significant crime

The crime that has been *falling* throughout the entire western world after peaking in the mid 1990's ?

Re:Deterioration of Local Community a Major Driver of Loss o... by constantcrying on Tuesday June 11, 2024 @11:24AM (#40647319)
>The crime that has been falling throughout the entire western world after peaking in the mid 1990's ?

crime=/=crime

The park were we hung out as kids is now inhabited by drug dealers. Obviously no place for kids, or families or basically anyone else, I will try to avoid if I reasonably can. And of course there was no increase in statistical crime, as it just is not getting prosecuted, although it is clear as day that it is happening.

Crime stats are hugely misleading if you want to figure out what a social environment looks like.