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Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by 1-6 on Sunday May 19, 2024 @11:03AM (#40407400)
Standards are meant to be broken, especially when they’re based on outdated assumptions.

I’m glad that Tesla is trying to do that with the 48V auxiliary (non-traction) battery. 48V is just below the Low Voltage threshold for human safety (NEC, NFPA). It’s also 4X the 12V std and still a number cleanly divisible by 3V.

Sometimes first principles design outshines industry standards especially when there are newer reasons.

Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by klysm on Sunday May 19, 2024 @12:28PM (#40408003)
Why does divisibility by 3 matter?
Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by spamizbad on Sunday May 19, 2024 @12:41PM (#40408083)
If I had to guess: common multiple of nominal voltage of a single battery cell (which is 1.5 to 3V)
Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by m463 on Sunday May 19, 2024 @08:37PM (#40410913)
Might be for transformers windings in vs windings out? I think transformers are pretty efficient, but convert voltage in multiples. I'm not an EE though and don't know if that is how electrical conversion is actually handled in cars.
Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by kogepathic on Monday May 20, 2024 @02:34AM (#40412904)
> transformers windings in vs windings out

Transformers only apply to AC, where there is a fluctuating magnetic field.

A transformer in a DC circuit is just a physically large (very low resistance) resistor.

The standard practice to convert DC voltage (at least for these voltages) would be a buck converter, which is an active circuit. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_converter

Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by klysm on Monday May 20, 2024 @10:01AM (#40415563)
Even if it was AC, the ratio of the number of turns is what matters. I don’t see why 3 would matter there.
Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by lttlrck on Sunday May 19, 2024 @02:18PM (#40408735)
Tesla didn't spearhead that though, in fact they were very late. It was initiated by German manufacturers in the early 2010's.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/48-volt_electrical_system

Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by 93po on Sunday May 19, 2024 @04:11PM (#40409436)
Audi has sold less than 10k cars total with a 48v system since 2018 and isn't even double digit percent of their total US sales. MB does better with a few hundred thousand since 2018. Tesla will be shipping a couple million per year. I think it's still fair to say Tesla is spearheading the actual production of these cars, whenever it starts to happen for them.
Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by jwnin on Monday May 20, 2024 @08:28AM (#40414737)
Has Tesla moved to 48V in any platform beyond the Cybertruck? Last I read, they have delivered ~4000 of them, and I don't know that they've updated the manufacturing of the existing lines to 48V yet.
Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by 93po on Monday May 20, 2024 @04:56PM (#40420280)
Tesla has said they're moving to 48v for "all future vehicles". So my assumption is whenever their existing models get a big change-up, 48v will be part of that change-up. I doubt they're going to switch e.g. Model 3 to 48v starting next year or anything unless there's some compelling cost cutting reason to do so.

They're also using it for their humanoid robot

Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by voxadam on Monday May 20, 2024 @04:38AM (#40413505)
> Standards are meant to be broken, especially when they’re based on outdated assumptions.

A standard I'd love to be modernized would be wider availability of 240 volt outlets in North America. I'd love to have the option of a 240 V electric kettle on my countertop or a 240 V toaster/pizza oven.

Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by jimbobthrowawy on Monday May 20, 2024 @05:18AM (#40413670)
Think you'd go with NEMA 240V sockets, or prefer a different standard of outlet?
Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by jen20 on Monday May 20, 2024 @02:39PM (#40418614)
The Type G connector serves perfectly well, and is vastly safer than the standard US outlets!
Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by ars on Monday May 20, 2024 @08:07PM (#40422295)
The Type G is way too big! They only reason it's that big is leftover baggage from ring circuits requiring fuses in the plugs.

And while it might be safer on paper, in practice there is little difference in injury rates US vs UK.

Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by jimbobthrowawy on Monday May 20, 2024 @09:01PM (#40422829)
I appreciate the plugs having replaceable fuses in them. Makes it harder for people to overload extension leads and the like.

Totally disagree on that injury rate though, and you would too if you ever stepped on a type G plug.

Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by ars on Monday May 20, 2024 @08:12PM (#40422342)
The NEMA 6-20 is what I'd want.

I actually think the US should start requiring those. Start with having 1 or 2 in the kitchen, and additionally 1 within 100 feet of any spot in the house.

Once they are more common we'll start to see appliances start using them. At first mainly for cooking and vacuum cleaners.

Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by ssl-3 on Tuesday May 21, 2024 @03:48AM (#40425285)
I'm in favor of having common ~240v sockets in the US, for all of the perhaps-obvious reasons including boiling water more-quickly for coffee or tea and running a portable induction hob that doesn't suck.

But if the NEMA 5-15 is a not-great standard, then the NEMA 6-20 is also equally-flawed. They've both got the same set of issues.

The only good reason for 6-20 (or 6-15) in American kitchens is that it is an "approved" connector. It fits in, today, with what we have here in the States in terms of broadly-accepted wiring methods, safety testing, and formal training. That is indeed a good reason, and I do not wish to diminish that reason.

If 6-20 were already commonly-used in residential environments -- anywhere -- then it'd be easy to say that it would be a nice thing to have in every kitchen. But it has neither momentum nor inertia, because it mostly just doesn't exist.

So if we're going to set out sights on what is ostensibly going to be considered a "new" plug, then: Why not aim for one that doesn't inherently suck?

Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by ars on Tuesday May 21, 2024 @04:23AM (#40425537)
Lots of A/Cs and high power equipment uses NEMA 6, there's wide availability of parts for it. For example I have several in my house. EV's have connectors for it as well.

The thing is people keep complaining about how bad NEMA 5 and 6 are - and yet, somehow, the US doesn't have a lot of electrical injuries. So it seems the theory doesn't match the reality. It's just not that big of a problem.

NEMA 5/6 sockets have a lot going for them: They are physically relatively small, the flat blade has a much better contact surface relative to round plugs, they are also much cheaper to make (both the plug and the socket).

I could certainly design something better - I would put all 3 prongs in a line (with un-even spacing to ensure polarity) to make the plug even smaller, and put an insulating sheath on the top of the prong designed exactly right so that when it makes electrical contact the metal part of the prong is no longer exposed.

Even better: You could make an outlet that is simultaneously 120V with backward compatibility and 240V! (And I just realized that polarity is pointless - 240V have a hot on both sides.) I'm starting to warm to your idea of a new outlet. Have three slots in a row.

> Why not aim for one that doesn't inherently suck?

Out of curiosity, other than the things I designed against, what other issues do you have with it?

Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by ssl-3 on Tuesday May 21, 2024 @06:13AM (#40426422)
As a counter-anecdote, I've never had a 6-15 or 6-20 in any home I've ever lived in. I'm aware of its existence and utility, and I even have a duplex Leviton 6-20R in my Amazon shopping cart that I will purchase and install in my kitchen if life ever allows me to be to be a homeowner again, but I just have never encountered them much in the wild. (Except once, over 20 years ago: The wall-mounted AC in a hotel room I stayed at in Florida used NEMA 6. [EV owners love this one simple trick!])

I have issues with typical US socket arrangements. They begin to disconnect too easily when things move around, as small appliances in a kitchen tend to do. They still work when partially-disconnected, but they have exposed live elements in this state.

This has probably happened to me hundreds of times so far. And while it hasn't harmed me yet, and I'm not particularly afraid of 125VAC, I'm always aware of that potential harm when I encounter the condition. I have also found (and corrected) the mythological problem where a metal thing has slid down a wall and onto a partially-inserted plug.

---

You know, as I wrote what I wrote before and I write this now, I've reviewed many of the world's plugs. Some seem kind of OK, some are huge for no apparent reason (adding both cost and bulk for little benefit), and some seem like a series of trade-offs that are based in legacy.

And the US certainly has its own legacies, too:

Like you alluded to, multi-speed 4-wire outlets, offering hot, hot, neutral, and ground. In a fairy tale world where these can be compatible with bog-standard NEMA 5-15P appliances, that becomes a very, very easy thing to sell. It becomes so easy to sell that the ease of use starts to become more important than some of the other functions I've considered. They can even configured so that each of the 120V portions operates on a separate leg. (This ruins global compatibility, and will ultimately require revision of the NEC since split-phase duplex outlets are presently only allowed in kitchens, but boy would that be easy to sell. It also requires 4 wires instead of 3.)

Is there enough room to add a contact (or two) inside of a 5-15R, using modern manufacturing methods? Maybe a square hole near the middle somewhere with positive engagement?

Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by ars on Tuesday May 21, 2024 @01:45PM (#40431489)
> I've reviewed many of the world's plugs

https://www.plugsocketmuseum.nl/

> They begin to disconnect too easily when things move around

Replace your outlets, the old ones did this, but the newer ones, especially commercial grade (which is only $2 more), hold much better and they won't go loose.

> Is there enough room to add a contact (or two) inside of a 5-15R

I was going to have it like:

    -.
  | | |
   .-
You can plug in a 5-15 on the left, or upside down on the right. And you can plug in a new 240V outlet into all 3 vertical lines, plus the ground as a horizontal line. (I can't show it on the ASCII art but I would have the ground much closer to the powered plugs relative to the round ground pin, to make the plug smaller.)

The cord for the new 240V plug would exit from the left or right, instead of straight out or from the bottom like current cords.

This would make the plug long and narrow, and inline with the cord, to make it smaller.

I would have this outlet always be 20A, there's no reason to have this 15A stuff we have now - that's just legacy. But if we really needed to, the center slot could turn into a + shape to enable 15 vs 20.

Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by ssl-3 on Tuesday May 21, 2024 @04:41PM (#40433615)
For NEMA 5-15: Better outlets do help, but do not eliminate the problem: A tighter friction fit is still a friction fit, and given enough wiggling they still tend to work themselves loose -- just on a longer timescale.

A connector with a positive snap-action would seem better: It is either snapped tightly into place, where it is connected and it works. Or it is unsnapped, where it is electrically disconnected and free to fall out completely. USB C seems to get this part right, as an example; good versions of the C7 ("mickey mouse") power connector seen on many laptops and boomboxes of yore also seem to get at least part of it right.

Anyhow, I don't think it can happen with a new combined outlet that preserves 5-15P compabibility, so...

---

Your combined outlet idea is neat, but it increases the minimum size by 50% and that increase may require new boxes, and definitely requires new coverplates.

I'm thinking something more like this arrangement:

   | o |
       
     U
Key: | is existing 5-15-style blade opening, U is existing 5-15 ground, and o is the new terminal on the other hot leg of split-phase.

The new terminal can be a blade, but a square or rectangular cross-section seems better: It's still flat for ease of making good contact, but it's also strong in more than one direction. Having a shape for that hole that is incompatible with existing blades also helps prevent Curious Little Jimmy from bodging a 5-15P into the wrong holes and torching appliances by applying twice their expected voltage.

It preserves 5-15P compatibility, does not necessarily increase the space used inside of a box, and fits behind the existing (and vast) array of cover plates. Grounding remains optional, and polarization and remains optional for non-grounded things (and both are determined by the plug end, not the outlet end, just as today).

The ground terminals always face the "outside", which is perhaps safer, and the inverted outlet

Still to sort:

Tamper resistance mechanism. The NEC requires that mechanism in many cases, these days, and universal application requires NEC compliance.

Also compatibility with existing wiring. One advantage of using a single-purpose outlet like 6-20R or even L6-20R is that existing wiring can (in some cases) be re-used by re-identifying (eg) the white wire for use as a hot leg, and this can speed adoption in some existing dwellings. But both of the layouts we've drawn have a neutral terminal on their face and invite the insertion of 120V plugs, even if they won't work.

Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by fragmede on Monday May 20, 2024 @04:42AM (#40413520)
for your kettle, the Japanese ones cheat by just keeping it hot all the time. as far as a pizza oven, unless you want to import one from Europe and have an electrician wire you up 240V, the new induction ones are cool (well, hot).
Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by voxadam on Monday May 20, 2024 @05:07AM (#40413618)
> for your kettle, the Japanese ones cheat by just keeping it hot all the time

Sure, but that's not what I'd call terribly energy efficient. I'd rather boil on demand seeing as my wife, the primary user of the kettle, doesn't drink tea while she's sleeping or at the office.

As far as the pizza oven goes I'll probably end up going with an propane Ooni, Roccbox, or the like on my patio.

I'm just saying that I'd like to option to dump 240V @ 13A into a small appliance in my kitchen. As it stands now I'm limited to a paltry 1500 watts compared to a peek that's more than double that in the UK.

Re:Intel undercut a standards body to give us the PCI connector by sebazzz on Monday May 20, 2024 @03:59PM (#40419590)
Newer Tesla Model 3 (2022+?) already have a 16V internal system (Li-ion) instead of 12V lead-acid.