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Re:GPT-4o by irjustin on Monday May 13, 2024 @07:37PM (#40349868)
> Instinctively, I dislike a robot that pretends to be a real human being.

Is that because you're not used to it? Honestly asking.

This is probably the first time it feels natural where as all our previous experiences make "chat bots" and "automated phone systems", "automated assistants" absolutely terrible.

Naturally, we dislike it because "it's not human". But this is true of pretty much any thing that approaches "uncanny valley". But, if the "it's not human" solves your answer 100% better/faster than the human counter part, we tend to accept it a lot faster.

This is the first real contender. Siri was the "glimpse" and ChatGPT is probably the reality.

Re:GPT-4o by ulchar on Monday May 13, 2024 @07:46PM (#40349929)
Emotions are an axiom to convey feelings, but also our sensitivity to human emotions can be a vector for manipulation.

Especially when you consider the bottom line that this tech will be ultimately be horned into advertising somehow (read: the field dedicated to manipulating you into buying shit).

This whole fucking thing bothers me.

Re:GPT-4o by maroonblazer on Monday May 13, 2024 @08:35PM (#40350285)
> Emotions are an axiom to convey feelings, but also our sensitivity to human emotions can be a vector for manipulation.

When one gets to be a certain age one begins to become attuned to this tendency of others' emotions to manipulate you, so you take steps to not let that happen. You're not ignoring their emotions, but you can address the underlying issue more effectively if you're not emotionally charged. It's a useful skill that more people would benefit from learning earlier in life. Perhaps AI will accelerate that particular skill development, which would be a net benefit to society.

Re:GPT-4o by mrbungie on Monday May 13, 2024 @11:08PM (#40351289)
With AI you can do A/B testing (or multi-arm bandits, the technique doesn't matter) to get into someone's mind.

Most manipulators end up getting bored of trying again and again with the same person. That won't happen if you are a dealing with a machine, as it can change names, techniques, contexts, tones, etc. until you give it what its operator wants.

Maybe you're part of the X% who will never give in to a machine. But keep in mind that most people have no critical thinking skills nor mental fortitude.

Re:GPT-4o by achierius on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @01:48AM (#40352008)
Problem is, people aren't machines either: someone who's getting bombarded with phishing requests will begin to lose it, and will be more likely to just turn off their Wi-Fi than allow an AI to run a hundred iterations of a many-armed-bandit approach on them.
Re:GPT-4o by mrbungie on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @09:11AM (#40354864)
Probably there will more nuance than that. And doomscrolling is a thing, you know.
Re:GPT-4o by jimkleiber on Monday May 13, 2024 @10:22PM (#40351020)
I think we often get better at detecting the underlying emotion with which the person is communicating, seeing beyond the one they are trying to communicate in an attempt to manipulate us. For example, they say that $100 is their final price but we can sense in the wavering of their voice that they might feel really worried that they will lose the deal. I don't think this will help us pick up on those cues because there are no underlying real emotions happening, maybe even feeding us many false impressions and making us worse at gauging underlying emotions.
Re:GPT-4o by komali2 on Monday May 13, 2024 @09:35PM (#40350702)
> When one gets to be a certain age one begins to become attuned to this tendency of others' emotions to manipulate you

This is incredibly optimistic, which I love, but my own experience with my utterly deranged elder family, made insane by TV, contradicts this. Every day they're furious about some new things fox news has decided it's time to be angry about: white people being replaced (thanks for introducing them to that, tucker!), "stolen" elections, Mexicans, Muslims, the gays, teaching kids about slavery, the trans, you name it.

I know nobody else in my life more emotionally manipulated on a day to day basis than them. I imagine I can't be alone in watching this happen to my family.

Re:GPT-4o by jasondigitized on Monday May 13, 2024 @10:19PM (#40351006)
What if this technology could be applied so you can’t be manipulated? If we are already seeing people use this to simulate and train sales people to deal with tough prospects we can squint our eyes a bit and see this being used to help people identify logical fallacies and con men.
Re:GPT-4o by mrbungie on Monday May 13, 2024 @11:09PM (#40351298)
That's just being hopeful/optimistic. There are more incentives to use it for manipulation than to protect from manipulation.

That happens with a lot of tech. Social networks are used to con people more than to educate people about con men.

Re:GPT-4o by sniggers on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @01:37AM (#40351949)
Yes nothing more unreasonable than not wanting your race to be replaced, wanting border laws to be enforced, and not wanting your children to be groomed into cutting off their body parts. You are definitely sane and your entire family is definitely insane.
Re:GPT-4o by komali2 on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @01:54AM (#40352041)
> not wanting your race to be replaced

Great replacement and white genocide are white nationalist far-right conspiracy theories. If you believe this is happening, you are the intellectual equivalent of a flat-earther. Should we pay attention to flat-earthers? Are their opinions on astronomy, rocketry, climate, and other sciences worth anyone's time? Should we give them a platform?

> In the words of scholar Andrew Fergus Wilson, whereas the islamophobic Great Replacement theory can be distinguished from the parallel antisemitic white genocide conspiracy theory, "they share the same terms of reference and both are ideologically aligned with the so-called '14 words' of David Lane ["We must secure the existence of our people and a future for white children"]." In 2021, the Anti-Defamation League wrote that "since many white supremacists, particularly those in the United States, blame Jews for non-white immigration to the U.S.", the Great Replacement theory has been increasingly associated with antisemitism and conflated with the white genocide conspiracy theory. Scholar Kathleen Belew has argued that the Great Replacement theory "allows an opportunism in selecting enemies", but "also follows the central motivating logic, which is to protect the thing on the inside [i.e. the preservation and birth rate of the white race], regardless of the enemy on the outside."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_genocide_conspiracy_theo...

> wanting border laws to be enforced

Border laws are enforced.

> and not wanting your children to be groomed into cutting off their body parts.

This doesn't happen. In fact, the only form of gender-affirming surgery that any doctor will perform on under-18 year olds is male gender affirming surgery on overweight boys to remove their manboobs.

> You are definitely sane and your entire family is definitely insane.

You sound brave, why don't you tell us what your username means :) You're one to stand by your values, after all, aren't you?

Re:GPT-4o by sniggers on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @01:58AM (#40352064)
I think you're like 10 years behind in the programming, the new line is that well obviously the Great Replacement is happening, but it's a good thing.
Re:GPT-4o by komali2 on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @03:04AM (#40352420)
Sorry mate I don't engage in weird identity politics like you do. Great Replacement is a conspiracy theory, full stop.

Why did you pick that username?

Re:GPT-4o by sniggers on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @01:23PM (#40357615)
>mate

So which group is your country being replaced by? Muslims or Chinese?

Re:GPT-4o by komali2 on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @08:49PM (#40361838)
The question makes no sense. You've just asked me whether I plan to walk off the eastern or western edge of the planet.

Why did you choose that username?

Re:GPT-4o by sniggers on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @11:24PM (#40362765)
I'm asking whether you live in England or Australia, special guy.
Re:GPT-4o by KHRZ on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @06:03AM (#40353454)
Well, when you inquire someone why they don't want to have more children, they can shrug and say "population reduction is good for the climate" as ig serving the greater good, and completely disregard any sense of "patriotic duty" to have more children like some politicians such as Vladimir Putin, would like to instill. They can justify it just as easily as you can be derranged enough to call it a governemnt conspiracy.
Re:GPT-4o by sniggers on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @01:27PM (#40357664)
Yes, you can justify not continuing your genetic line and letting your race die out. You can justify anything, humans are great at explaining their behavior. Its just that actively hating your own race and wanting it to die out makes you an insane person and a defective human being
Re:GPT-4o by komali2 on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @09:59PM (#40362311)
You say that but you clearly hate your own race. Why are you contradicting yourself?
Re:GPT-4o by sniggers on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @11:24PM (#40362762)
I love White people. I don't like race traitors of any kind.
Re:GPT-4o by phaerus_iconix on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @05:18AM (#40353175)
Well said, thank you for saving me from having to take the time to say it myself!
Re:GPT-4o by jodrellblank on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @04:15PM (#40359653)
> "Yes nothing more unreasonable than not wanting your race to be replaced"

In 100 years you will be gone and your 'place' on Earth taken by someone else. Instead of caring whether they are good people, kind, considerate, in good health, with access to education and human rights and a functioning environment with drinkable water and hope for the future - and haven't been left the wreckage of a ruined planet unable to support life - instead frothing at the mouth at a fantasy that they have brown skin or speak Arabic or came directly from Africa instead of from Africa-via-Europe or that they don't properly respect the Pope, or don't have names like Matthew Mark Luke and John, is not sane.

> "not wanting your children to be groomed into cutting off their body parts"

Christians and Jews have been doing routine cutting off children's body parts by the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, every year for lifetimes in the USA. Trans people haven't.

Fox is surely not trying to distract anyone from this, are they? https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/10/23/1806673/-Republi... (Part 1 of 31)

Re:GPT-4o by irjustin on Monday May 13, 2024 @08:58PM (#40350425)
> Especially when you consider the bottom line that this tech will be ultimately be horned into advertising somehow.

Tools and the weaponization of them.

This can be said of pretty much any tech tool that has the ability to touch a good portion of the population, including programming languages themselves, CRISPR?

I agree we have to be careful of the bad, but the downsides in this case are not so dangerous that we should be trying to suppress it because the benefits can be incredible too.

Re:GPT-4o by jasondigitized on Monday May 13, 2024 @10:23PM (#40351024)
This. It’s mind boggling how many people can only see things through one world view and see nothing but downside.
Re:GPT-4o by AnthonyMouse on Monday May 13, 2024 @11:09PM (#40351295)
The concern is that it's being locked up inside of major corporations that aren't the slightest bit trustworthy. To make this safe for the public, people need to be able to run it on their own hardware and make their own versions of it that suit their needs rather than those of a megacorp.
Re:GPT-4o by tonyhart7 on Monday May 13, 2024 @10:53PM (#40351196)
this tech isn't slowing down and our generation maybe hesitate at first but remember this field progressing at astonishing speeds like we are literally 1 generation away
Re:GPT-4o by jasondigitized on Monday May 13, 2024 @10:16PM (#40350988)
Why can’t it also inspire you? If I can forgo advertising and have ChatGPT tutor my child on geometry and they actually learn it at a fraction of the cost of a human tutor why is that bothersome? Honest question. Why do some many people default to something sinister going on. If this technology shows real efficacy in education at scale take my money.
Re:GPT-4o by spiderice on Monday May 13, 2024 @10:27PM (#40351041)
Because it is obviously going to be used to manipulate people. There is absolutely 0 doubt about that (and if there is I'd love to hear your reasoning). The fact that it will be used to teach geometry is great. But how many good things does a technology need to do before the emotional manipulation becomes worth it?
Re:GPT-4o by SubiculumCode on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @12:50AM (#40351712)
One may also begin to ask, what's the point of learning geometry? Or anything, anymore?
Re:GPT-4o by ulchar on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @01:05AM (#40351781)
I don't think OpenAI is doing anything particularly sinister. But whatever OpenAI has today a bad actor will have in October. This horseshit is moving rather fast. Sorry, but in two years going from failing the turing test to being able to have a conversation with an AI agent nearly indistinguishable from a person is going to be destabilizing.

Start telling Grandma never to answer the phone.

Re:GPT-4o by trashtester on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @06:07AM (#40353480)
AI is going to be fantastic at teaching skills to students that those students may never need, since the AI will be able to do all the work that requires such skills, and do them faster, cheaper and at a higher level of quality.
Re:GPT-4o by munksbeer on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @11:50AM (#40356505)
I've read HN for a long time before registering. I might be mistaken but it does feel as though the sentiment here is starting to look more like the so called tech or science reddit subs. ie. tech-sceptical, anti-capitalism, doomer.

Obviously one needs to be aware of the downsides of tech and the downsides of large corporate manipulation, but if you had no awareness of the outside world and could only infer it from these sort of comments, you'd assume we were all living terrible lives.

Re:GPT-4o by AnthonyMouse on Monday May 13, 2024 @11:13PM (#40351321)
> Naturally, we dislike it because "it's not human".

That wasn't even my impression.

My impression was that it reminds me of the humans that I dislike.

It speaks in customer service voice. That faux friendly tone people use when they're trying to sell you something.

Re:GPT-4o by irjustin on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @12:43AM (#40351680)
> It speaks in customer service voice. That faux friendly tone people use when they're trying to sell you something.

Mmmmm while I get that, in the context w/ the grandparent comment, having a human wouldn't be better then? It's effectively the same. Because, realistically that's a pretty common voice/tone to get even in tech support.

Re:GPT-4o by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @02:57AM (#40352376)
Being the same as something bad is bad.

There are different kinds of humans.

Some of them are your friends, and they're willing to take risks for you and they take your side even when it costs them something.

Some of them are your adversaries, overtly. They do not hide it.

Some of them pretend to be your friends, even though they're not. And that's what they modeled it on. For some reason.

Re:GPT-4o by irjustin on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @03:19AM (#40352491)
Apologies, I'm doing my best, but I'm quite lost.

The problem is you don't like the customer service/sales voice because they "pretend to be your friends".

Let me know if I didn't capture it.

I don't think people "pretend to be my friend" when they answer the phone to help me sort out of airline ticket problem. I do believe they're trained to and work to take on a "friendly" tone. Even if the motive isn't genuine, because it's trained, it's way a nicer of an experience than someone who's angry or even simply monotone. Trying to fix my $1200 plane ticket is stressful enough. Don't need the CSR to make it worse.

Re:GPT-4o by AnthonyMouse on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @05:02AM (#40353069)
Being human doesn't make it worse. Saccharine phonies are corny when things are going well and dispiriting when they're meant to be helping you and fail.
Re:GPT-4o by vladms on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @06:53AM (#40353766)
Might be cultural, but I would prefer a neutral tone. The friendly tone gives some expectation of good result of the inquiry or of implication, which makes it worse when the problem is not solvable or not in the power of agent to solve - which many times it is - you don't call support for simple problems.

Of course I agree that "angry" is in most cases not appropriate, but still, I can see cases in which it might, for example, if the caller is really aggressive, curses, or blames unreasonably the agent, the agent could become angry. Training people that everybody will answer them "friendly" no matter their behavior does not sound good for me.

Re:GPT-4o by rpdillon on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @09:29AM (#40355037)
You can ask it to use a different voice.
Re:GPT-4o by PheonixPharts on Monday May 13, 2024 @11:32PM (#40351404)
> This is probably the first time it feels natural

Really? I found this demo painful to watch and literally felt that "cringe" feeling. I showed it to my partner and she couldn't even stand to hear more than a sentence of the conversation before walking away.

It felt both staged and still frustrating to listen to.

And, like far too much in AI right now, a demo that will likely not pan out in practice.

Re:GPT-4o by jamil7 on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @12:38AM (#40351651)
This, everyone had to keep interrupting and talking over it to stop it from waffling on.
Re:GPT-4o by petereddy on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @08:59AM (#40354752)
I had the same reaction. I agree that it sounded very staged, but it also sounded far too cheerful and creepily flirty too. Unbearable.
Re:GPT-4o by FabHK on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @12:15AM (#40351557)
The Khan academy video is very impressive, but I do hope they release a British version that’s not so damn cheerful.
Re:GPT-4o by irjustin on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @12:44AM (#40351684)
I wonder if you can ask it to change its inflections to match a personal conversation as if you're talking to a friend or a teacher or in your case... a British person?
Re:GPT-4o by aksss on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @03:49AM (#40352646)
This is where Morgan Freeman can clean up with royalty payments. Who doesn’t want Ellis Boyd Redding describing ducks and math problems in kind and patient terms?
Re:GPT-4o by Beijinger on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @10:06AM (#40355375)
"Naturally, we dislike it because "it's not human"."

This is partly right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

Re:GPT-4o by interludead on Tuesday May 14, 2024 @11:10AM (#40356008)
> Siri was the "glimpse" and ChatGPT is probably the reality.

Agree. Can't wait to see how it'll be...