What happens if/when all countries are close to western levels of wealth? There'll no longer be a readily available underclass to support the less capable old-people in rich countries and they'll effectively be poor again.
In New Zealand, we already rely heavily on immigrants for aged care, health care and various trades.
What evidence do you have that babies born today are screwed by climate change? If they live 80 years, they will see the end of most predictions (2100), which aren't actually a disaster for people in rich countries. It might be a problem in Bangladesh but not America.
Wishful thinking won't take us anywhere, we need to work with the reality we have right now not with extraordinary potential saviours might provide if they ever exist...
I was just making the point that people aren't necessarily a net detriment. If people honestly believed that you'd see mass suicides as well.
I don't know a single person that believe or thinks this way (that we're doomed). Maybe they do, but they don't say anything about it.
Fwiw, I live in a rural area, have kids and most of my friends have families. We all are good people, that recycle and try to conserve and not be wasteful. But I spend almost 0 thoughts on this topic and it causes me no worries.
Call it head in the sand if you want but I'd rather live this way than most of these comments.
Have a look at this for some very informed and depressing opinions: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/article/2024/may/08/...
> Call it head in the sand if you want but I'd rather live this way than most of these comments.
I think denial is an important human quality; ultimately, we are all doomed anyway. It's something I've never been all that good at. I certainly see the dichotomy between those that have children and those that don't. I'm sure there are selection affects there regarding optimism, but if you have children, it's very hard to believe that they will face terrible hardship in the future. But the data is the data, regardless of our belief.
The problem with these comments here are that some people suggest that having kids, having a car, a house, or occasionally flying, etc... is harming other people. Humans are not wired for this risk calculation, even so most are doubtful this is a forgone conclusion.
Further, most people (That I know) are not choosing a path based on data and charts. They are happy if the bills are paid, kids are in a good school, little crime and plenty of food TODAY.
So I don't think it is denial, it is a philosophy that allows us to live a fulfilled life, not one out of denial and dispair.
Yes, I've never been good at this, but in my defense, it doesn't really make sense to worry about the things you can control since you can... you know... control them. It also doesn't make sense to worry about the things you can't because you can't control them. Then why every worry about anything? I suppose it's just the way some of us are built.
Anything that adds carbon to the atmosphere is indeed harming other people; that is the what we have learned. To some of us, living beyond our sustainable means is the opposite of fulfilling; only living for today can cost you your future. Obviously the actions of an individual are nearly meaningless in the sense that no one drop of water makes the flood, but our own actions are the only things we can control as you say and so perhaps the only thing we should worry about.
Every time I read one of these threads on HN I simply cannot believe the doomsaying, condemnation of the heretics, and repent preaching that goes on in these rabbit holes. It’s like someone transported me to an ‘80s tent revival meeting.
I live my life, do my best to be a good steward of the earth and community, but I am certainly much more worried about the now than what might happen 100 years from now.
It's common on this site on many topics way outside of tech and if you add in the popularity of making the worst out of climate change, it's only magnified for that subject among a certain social subset that predominate here.
Many of the completely despondent, "we're fucked" opinions here don't even reflect the actual latest scientific consensus on what climate change will likely do, and some HN comment opinions are outright irrational on claiming apocalyptic scenarios.
Nobody who is serious about the good science around the effects of climate change should take them seriously.
I don't think you comprehend the level and degree of difference between all of those events against the effects where laws of physics dictating how a planetary-level of change in energy retained will mess up with every single thing we as humanity need to survive on this Earth.
I assume folks on HN are smart enough to understand the basic premise of what I said, if needed I can track the data for you but you could probably do the same instead of a stupid rebuttal dressed as snarkiness.
You probably don't know. I've never found anyone who knows what that means, or can even provide even the crudest estimate of the human impact of climate change such as number of deaths, financial cost, etc. that comes close to 20th century disasters.
Societies having to spend more in dealing with effects from climate change have to spend less in other stuff that are investments, stuff like education, R&D, healthcare, transportation; to build dikes, pumping stations, purchasing ever increasing food products after crop failures, rebuilding cities destroyed by climatic events (or moving whole cities/population centres that aren't possible to be rebuilt nor protected), building border defences to stop millions of climate refugees from immigrating to dwindling inhabitable spaces. All of that will have massive costs that will make life much harder for future generations.
We don't know what our children futures will be because as humanity we never been through a truly global catastrophe affecting every single corner of the planet at the same time, not even World Wars were any close to the potential destructive power that fucking up our climate is.
* Animals and plants are dying at a mind-boggling rate. This has consequences for us eventually too, but on it's own, this is an atrocity.
* We're stuffing the air, sea and water with plastic, PFAs, insecticides, herbicides, etc. This will also have consequences for us.
* Our polar ice is melting, our vital weather systems collapsing, our topsoil eroding, our old growth forest near forgotten. As noted above, our oceans are doing some terrifying shit. Consequences are imminent.
* Inequality exacerbates all the above, and gives me serious doubt as to how our children will actually fare. Climate refugees are already a thing, and it could get soo much worse if our current path is maintained.
A stunning proportion of our leaders, megacorps, media, banks, and institutions are making this all worse. They subsidize and invest in fossil fuels, arms, big agri etc. They provide cover for them, enable them, and profit from them. They savagely beat anyone fighting against their acts into submission; sometimes with mortal methods, sometimes just with smears and legal abuse.
Have you considered any of this in your declaration of "we're in the best place ever"? I feel like we have a responsibility to our children and grandchildren to be honest about our fuck-ups.
I don't think you realize where we're coming from. Poverty, famine, violence, child mortality etc are all globally lower than ever and on a downward trend.
Yes climate change is a huge challenge, but it's not likely that we fuck up so bad that we undo all the progress from the last few hundred years (but also not impossible either, I'll give you that)
What I don't get is why people are still having children in societies where it is not necessary to have offspring to provide you with income and care in your later years. Anyone approaching middle age can still look forward to a relatively comfortable life, but it's the babies being born today that are truly screwed.