My hesitation with hybrids is that I keep all the associated maintenance costs of an ICE engine. Now I have two power trains and energy systems to maintain instead of just one.

Well, hybrids sometimes get to replace the transmission with EV bits, like Toyota's system. Imagine an engine and exhaust system; now multiply the complexity by 100 and you have a modern transmission. Toyota hybrids (and GM/Chrystler/Honda) replace all that with a single planetary gearset, or with Honda, one clutch.

Other systems, think Volvo, pop the EV bits in the back of the car and replace where the drive shaft used to be with batteries. That seems like a decent trade to me as well. Still have a transmission, but at least it's not purely additive.

AND one man's added complexity is another's redundancy. If the charging module goes bad in a hybrid, you can still drive. Or if you run out of gas.

All that said... I still prefer EVs to hybrids. Do one thing, do it well, I say!

Modern transmissions can’t be two orders of magnitude more complicated than a modern ICE. If they are then I need to get into transmission design. An automatic transmission is basically just a series of planetary gears anyway. I would expect the marginal complexity between an ICE transmission and a hybrid transmission to be within a multiple of 2, but closer to parity. They’re both extremely reliable but an EV transmission (gearbox) will be even simpler.

The thing that mechanically totals modern crap cars (think cheap Nissans and Subarus) is often the CVT. Ford and GM have transmission problems pretty often. GP is totally right that the planetary eCVTs actually make cars way simpler. Look at Ford's (horrendous reputation with small cars) hybrids from the 2010s, lots of them running around with 300k on the clock.

> (think cheap Nissans and Subarus)

You don't even need to limit it to the lower end models with Subaru. The top trim Outback and Ascent have a CVT these days. If you want an automatic transmission in your WRX, same thing - a CVT. Anyway, you're not wrong.

A CVT is even simpler than an automatic. They may be less reliable but not necessarily more complicated.

I dunno, maybe 100x was an exaggeration, but not by much! Take a look at this transmission from 2007. They haven't gotten simpler. Lot's of cars are sporting 10-speeds these days.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_transmission#/media/...

The number of speeds is a function of the number of planetary gearsets. They’re just connected in series. More speeds isn’t more complex, it’s only a larger part count. By the time the transmission is computer controlled and has two speeds it’s as complex as it’s going to be.

Modern ICE are also extremely complex. Turbo systems, sensors, air management, heat management, the list goes on.

So yeah, a modern transmission is complex but a modern ICE isn’t simple. By comparison they’re very similar in terms of complexity, the ICE possibly being even more complex.

>By the time the transmission is computer controlled and has two speeds it’s as complex as it’s going to be.

I don't disagree with your posts greater point, but I disagree with this.

There is an endless amount of variable complexity in the engineering behind friction materials, actuation styles, the control systems within the computer control, the material selections.. the list goes on.

I mean entire branches of metallurgy were more or less founded in the pursuit of finding stronger alloys for gearbox work. entire branches of metrology were developed for the sake of gearbox failure analysis -- there is a lot of complexity.

It's stupid to get into a pissing contest between engines and transmissions, they're both astoundingly complex.

The complexity of a transmission relative to another of the same design is not a function of the number of usable gear ratios it provides.

A clutch-and-planetary hydraulic transmission is just a series of the same basic gear set design. That gear set may be made of exotic materials but once you have one the rest are basically identical. Combining them is only a question of packaging, control, and manufacturing tolerance. All complex on their own but equally important to an ICE.

The linked AA80E from 2007 is an 8 speed. 10 speed designs are not much different.

They’re all fundamentally the same selectively lockable series of gearsets we have had for the better part of a century.

I don’t buy that transmissions are somehow unique or even exceptional in motivating improvements in design and materials science. The ICE will benefit from the same improvements and has even more opportunities to utilize those improvements.

Look at a workshop maintenance manual to get a rough idea. One car I had, about a third of the book was dedicated to the automatic transmission. Auto transmissions are very complex.

Yes, in a past life I rebuilt automatic transmissions so I am familiar with their complexity.

Transmissions are complex but so are a lot of things. Internal combustion engines are more complex than transmissions.

Pages in a shop manual are a proxy for the complexity of service, not of the component itself.

Other than spark plugs, belts, oil changes and other such consumables I don't remember having to do any engine maintenance on my cars for the last 10 years. Of course, it helps that I am buyer of boring Toyotas and Hondas.

But all those costs are correlated with engine hours, in a hybrid used most of the time for commuting, ICE engine hours would be really low

You do, but at least repair costs should be low because typically you won't put very many miles on that engine.

Suppose 90% of your miles are electric. After you've put 250K miles (400K km) on the car, you've only got 25K miles (40K km) on the engine. Rarely do you have significant engine trouble at that mileage.

Also, the engine design can probably be simplified if it's just acting as a generator. You don't need a turbo to provide extra bursts of power. Nor things like variable valve timing for good performance across a wide range of RPMs. Maybe you could even use an air-cooled engine like old VW Beetles and Porsches.

I wish they'd just sell/rent little trailers with a charging engine on them you could take on long trips.

I know that tesla's won't allow you to drive while charging the car. It throws an error if it's plugged in, so, that's a no-go without significant hackery.

That said, they certainly have tow-behind generators, and they're certainly available for rent, it's just without modification you'd have to stop in order to charge. I've seen people with a model X doing exactly this out in the desert. Seemed to be an ok solution honestly, because they were camping and had genset power for camping needs, assuming of course that the whole electricity while camping thing is something you're into.

I'd avoid any car with two powertrains, but there are systems that have an all electric powertrain with the ICE being used as a generator instead. It is a simplified system that, if designed correctly, can allow all battery or all generator to move the vehicle.

Just buy a toyota hybrid and have 0 worries to 200k miles then.

One of the fuel injectors died at 190k miles in my Prius, so not quite 200k. At 210k now.

Only other thing is that it is consuming more oil now so needs topping up every few thousand miles.

That is just a meme without substance. The ongoing maintenance cost of a mature Japanese ICE drivetrain is negligible compared to the overall operating costs of the whole car. There is a reason why Toyota hybrids are by far the most popular cars for Uber drivers.

Total cost of ownership of a Toyota hybrid is less than many other entirely ICE cars lol

True. I think people just over-estimate the cost of an ICE drivetrain. Yes, they have thousands of parts. But they don't cost anything to build. It's Japan's whole thing. You can get an entire Prius long block engine in a crate delivered for $2k. This is about half the cost of 1 headlight assembly from a Model S. Cost is not about complexity, it is about scale.

But how often do you have issues with the engine. My last 3 cars never had a single engine issues for at least 175.000 miles. Its very rare today to have big engine issues.

Clearly you're not buying quirky over-engineered German cars loaded with exotic but mostly useless luxury features. They are well built and last forever, but typically require very frequent tinkering to keep them working.

It's the powertrain that's far more apt to be the problem. Hence a plugin hybrid generator style should be far simpler than a system with both an ICE and electric powertrain.

For most Toyota hybrids they use a single planetary gear set to combine electric motors and a gas engine into a single unit. That's the entire transmission. It's far more efficient than bolting a generator on an electric car.

For climate control, they are nearly identical to a gas Toyota.

The funniest part is that the way Toyota hybrid powertrains work, if either the ICE or electric motor doesn't work, you cannot go anywhere. It's LESS systemically reliable than either a purely ICE or purely electric powertrain, and yet STILL Toyota hybrids are some of the most reliable cars you can buy.

Their engineering is just that insanely conservative. They just make giant, absurdly understressed engines. You can pull a 2.5L 4cyl engine out of a Camry, designed to make 180 horsepower, replace only a few components, and make 400hp with the reliability you would normally expect from an engine built for endurance racing. They are super popular in drift racing leagues.

I'm not actually sure how many plug-in hybrids go for an all-electric power train, versus a dual power train.

I know the Chevy Volt had an all-electric power train, and the ICE is purely a generator that dumps power into the electrical system, and the Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid has a dual power train, but I wasn't able to find a concise list of which hybrids have taken what strategy.

parallel versus series hybrid. Series will have ICE generate and the only thing attached to the wheels is electric motors. Parallel (like the prius) the electric motor and the ICE are connected to the wheels. There are reasons for both, but freight trains in the US are series. In my opinion, series is probably the best, since you can engineer the ICE to be as clean and efficient as possible at exactly 1 RPM setting - making them last longer to boot.

I apologize for forgetting the benefits of parallel hybrid systems, but i know there are some, including needing a smaller ICE, all things equal.

Some hybrids don't, they just have a very small engine that charges the battery.

A lot of maintenance items simply don't exist in a modern full hybrid. Typically there is no accessory belt, no alternator, no starter. Filters, coils, spark plugs and engine oil will last longer since the engine doesn't run nearly as hot (usually it's "atkinson" cycle) and isn't used constantly.

And brakes last longer, since they aren't used nearly as much.

Taxi drivers like Prius cars because their maintenance costs are low, not just because they are really efficient.

I like the idea of a hybrid, but I need around 100 miles to make it worth the transition for me, otherwise I'll just go all electric or stay part of the problem. I still need the EVs to come under 30k to make sense, as that's the upper limit I set on vehicle cost for the present.

Yeah, they seem like a nice solution. The good plug-in EVs are still too new and expensive for me, so I had an old ICE vehicle and an old EV. They were both actually the exact same car model in the same color even, the ICE and EV versions of it.

I believe that most people with a plug in hydrid actually forget to plug the car in, so the car is almost never in electric.

That is... debatable. The study that showed that came out of Europe, where a huge percentage of cars purchased new are fleet vehicles, and not owned by individuals/families. Why would I plug a company car in when I pay my electric bill but have a corporate card for gas?