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Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by whimsicalism on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @11:37AM (#40224808)
I'm not particularly a fan of Musk, but I would perceive switching contracts from Starlink to this consortium as likely political influence in what should be an apolitical process.

Similar to what has been happening recently with the FCC's rural broadband program - where Starlink, in my view, is likely being punished by the government for Musk's outspokenness.

Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by lxgr on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @12:07PM (#40225215)
I don't think it's a political statement to want to have redundancy from Starlink. Quite the opposite, it seems only pragmatic.

To many parties concerned about very high availability, (geo)politics are ultimately just another source of risk, and I think it's fair to say that Elon isn't known for being a de-risking factor, political or otherwise.

For example, what happens to Starlink when SpaceX, for whatever reason, decides to rededicate its launch capacity to other projects? Cheap launch capacity is the lifeblood of the Starlink constellation (the satellites are designed to be replaced much more frequently than other LEO competitors' such as Iridium or Globalstar).

As a government other than the US, are you sure your contracts that might compel SpaceX to deliver that launch capacity (assuming you managed to get them in the first place) are ironclad? Do you have the deep pockets and political will for an inter-jurisdictional lawsuit?

Just betting a few chips on a competitor, even if they're less viable than Starlink, just seems like prudent risk mitigation (and I say that as a fan of what Starlink is doing!)

Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by whimsicalism on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @12:11PM (#40225258)
> I don't think it's a political statement to want to have redundancy from Starlink. Quite the opposite, it seems only pragmatic.

Yes, competition is good.

> Elon isn't known for being a de-risking factor, political or otherwise.

The government should not be awarding contracts because it 'de-risks' them politically. They should be writing better contracts for the specific thing they want.

Speech-conditioned funding is clearly afoul of the 1st amendment and related precedent, even if you dress it up in 'de-risking' language. And, as a society, we have to be very wary of how we run contract processes because this is one of the easiest ways for corruption to get its foot in the door.

> As a government other than the US

I've clearly been speaking from the perspective of the US this whole time (and the US clearly does have the pockets). Most other countries don't even really have free speech protections like the US does, so their problems are deeper.

> SpaceX, for whatever reason, decides to rededicate its launch capacity to other projects?

Violation of contract? Most of these competitors are using SpaceX launch capacity as well - given that it is 90% of all launch capacity globally.

Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by lxgr on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @12:15PM (#40225319)
> Violation of contract?

Lawsuits take time and money, and I think having a slightly higher-orbit LEO constellation under independent operational control could provide a fallback that many governments and commercial customers would be willing to pay good money for.

> Most of these competitors are likely using SpaceX launch capacity as well

That's a fair point, but there are ultimately alternatives, even if they might be non-competitive in terms of cost right now. It'd ultimately only be a backup, after all.

> Speech-conditioned funding is clearly afoul of the 1st amendment and related precedent

I was thinking primarily non-US government customers, so the first amendment has no bearing there. I'm pretty sure that the DOD has better ways to compel Elon to not shut off Starlink than e.g. the EU or an Asian government, so to them, that redundancy is probably less valuable.

Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by whimsicalism on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @12:17PM (#40225349)
Yeah I edited my comment to reflect the US-focus (given that is what GP was discussing as well).

This matters for the US because of the strong free speech protections here. Most EU countries & most Asian countries do not have similar strength of protections.

Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by countvonbalzac on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @12:21PM (#40225401)
The issue is Starlink is run by a political actor. Elon was using his Starlink leverage to try to affect US foreign policy.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/08/28/elon-musks-sha...

Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by whimsicalism on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @12:27PM (#40225489)
Which is why they denied FCC rural broadband funding to Starlink?

The US government never had a contract with Starlink for Ukraine war usage. It does not seem to me like a reasonable expectation that a civilian company provide services for conducting a foreign war - nor that they be punished in unrelated contracts for refusing to do so.

Companies are permissibly allowed to be run by actors with political interests. By contrast, the government should not be making contracting decisions for political/speech reasons.

Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by maliker on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @01:23PM (#40226344)
My read of the rural broadband decision is that terrestrial broadband providers lobbied hard to get Starlink thrown out on a technically (not enough bandwidth).
Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by whimsicalism on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @01:37PM (#40226547)
It is only a party-line decision because of Musk's politics. Democrats aren't more susceptible to lobbying.

To me it is clear that we are returning to the politics of the 20th century (ie. flexing regulatory arms to punish speech/actions we don't like). It makes sense - we really only had a brief respite from that from the 90s until ~2016 or so.

Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by spankalee on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @11:57AM (#40225073)
> Musk's outspokenness

It's far more than just "outspokenness"

Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by whimsicalism on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @11:58AM (#40225091)
What is it then? And at what point does it justify governmental retaliation in awarding contracts?
Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by kbenson on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @01:10PM (#40226166)
Market manipulation? Stupidity? In any case, it doesn't have to be political to want to avoid possible problems from a CEO that keeps running afoul of regulatory requirements, whether accidentally or purposefully.

https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-219

Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by whimsicalism on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @01:15PM (#40226227)
That Musk tweets stupid things that triggered SEC intervention in his running of Tesla seems irrelevant to whether Starlink is the best fit for rural connectivity.
Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by kbenson on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @04:41PM (#40229110)
Am I to take your stance as "whether CEO shows poor decision making with regard to regulatory authorities in his role as CEO is irrelevant to whether his role as a CEO at a company should affect how people assess long-term suitability of products they offer which happen to be highly regulated.", or is it something else?
Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by whimsicalism on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @07:16PM (#40230776)
It's frankly irrelevant to the neutral, technical criteria the government should be using to evaluate rural broadband or other contracts. My bet is that if Musk had not made recent controversial statements, this would not even be a topic of discussion - and it is being discussed due to more recent unpopularity.
Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by kbenson on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @08:05PM (#40231195)
Honestly, I was more referring to the general market portion, not the specific governmental decision making, but that does appear to be the context of this thread, even though I missed it originally.

I agree that for governmental decision making his behavior hasn't reached a level I think it can or should affect the process. That said, I'm not sure the process should be completely devoid of past regulatory or legal compliance issues, but I don't know how those could be applied evenly, and in the absence of a good framework for that I agree they shouldn't be considered.

Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by thinkcontext on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @03:13PM (#40227910)
I thought the point where he said his conversations with the Russians informed his decision to not allow the Ukrainians to attack Crimea probably got the Pentagon's attention.
Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by whimsicalism on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @03:21PM (#40228036)
Musk does not have control over “allowing the Ukrainians to attack Crimea” but is also under no obligation to provide services from his civilian company to foreign militaries.

I would be personally pissed as a rural broadband user if machinations about a conflict in Eastern Europe was the reason I was getting subpar telecom service in Tennessee.

Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by edgyquant on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @04:48PM (#40229213)
No matter your thoughts on the matter Musk is an American citizen and is allowed to be pro-Russia, pro-China or any other opinion he perceives is correct. The government also can’t punish him for having these opinions nor can it force a private company to work with a foreign power.
Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by hedora on Wednesday May 01, 2024 @11:22PM (#40232371)
Here's the definition of treason in the US:

> Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title18/par...

Blocking or unexpectedly rug-pulling a US-funded military strike against someone that the US is sanctioning certainly counts as "aid" to an "enemy".

So, he should be looking at 5 years + a $10,000 fine or get the death penalty.

Either way, I'm hoping we won't have to deal with a presidential run from him in the future ("... obama, kenya, ... something, something...")

Re:Two giants in the satellite telecom industry join forces ... by whimsicalism on Thursday May 02, 2024 @12:13PM (#40237917)
He's not born in America so he certainly cannot run for president.

Your criteria for accusing someone of treason is ridiculous and I am thankful you are not in charge of our government.