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Re:The darker side of being a doctor by derbOac on Saturday April 13, 2024 @04:12PM (#40025656)
The answer is implied, right there in the first paragraph: "... I’ve never been diagnosed with a mental illness."

At least in the US, there's a kind of masochistic pride in the physician community, that everything he described in his essay is laudable, noble, to be emulated. Nowhere does he acknowledge the risks to his patients or whether the costs are worth it in the end, or if a different system might be better. And he's holding up the lack of mental illness diagnosis as if it's something to be proud of, as opposed to never being diagnosed with say, cardiovascular disease or cancer. He's proud he's never sought help or tried to change anything. Sure he mentions problems with patient care in passing, but what he's really upset about is "just being another employee".

In the end in his mindset whatever he's complaining about is better than the alternatives, which is ceding over some of the care responsibilities to others or opening up healthcare to a more competitive market so he's not the only provider who could provide those services (note the comment about denying other physicians income). The AMA and physicians union (yes it's a union) basically guarantees this in lieu of having real competition, decreased income, and so forth.

Why is it different in something like aviation? My guess is because the failures are more visible, they're on the nightly news, people are there posting pictures on social media? For whatever reason, I don't think pilot organizations ever managed to remove themselves from scrutiny in the same way as physicians did. We see pilots as highly skilled professionals, but part of a system, with alternatives, and the subject of fair scrutiny from outsiders who are not pilots: engineers, safety experts, investigators and so forth. In my experience when these kinds of issues come up in healthcare though, everyone defers to physician groups themselves, as if no one else has expertise enough to scrutinize them.

I imagine too at some level, part of the issue is that the pilots themselves are subject to their own mistakes: if a pilot crashes a plane, they take themselves out at the same time. If a surgeon makes a mistake and kills a patient, they still walk home and can rationalize whatever they want, all they want.

I'm growing unsympathetic to these types of essays (the one linked). If physicians want me to empathize with them more, maybe they should stop stigmatizing mental unwellness and recognize it in themselves. Maybe they as a professional group should admit that others could take on some of the load, maybe even better in some situations. It feels a bit like they create a mess out of selfish greed or ego and then expect me to feel bad for them.

Re:The darker side of being a doctor by mlyle on Saturday April 13, 2024 @04:19PM (#40025719)
> Nowhere does he acknowledge the risks to his patients or whether the costs are worth it in the end, or if a different system might be better

c.f.

"...everything is rushed, and mistakes are bound to occur."

"I am realising more and more that what brings me greatest distress is the relentless administrative pressure which take away the meaningful clinical engagement I have with my patients."

"I was burned out and I couldn’t control my emotions at work and at home. I’m not inherently an offensive or rude person, I’m just a person pushed to the limits and set to fail because of the circumstances around my work."

> In the end in his mindset whatever he's complaining about is better than the alternatives, which is ceding over some of the care responsibilities to others or opening up healthcare to a more competitive market so he's not the only provider who could provide those service

This is Australia, which does not have artificial restrictions on the supply of doctors to the same extent. On the other hand, they don't have a surplus of surgeons nor can nurse practitioners do the work

> (note the comment about denying other physicians income).

Yah, he's saying that if he doesn't come in, the backlog gets worse, and other people don't get paid.

> He's proud he's never sought help or tried to change anything.

He says he would like to seek support, but highlights the structural problems that prevent it:

"I know where I can get support, but practically, when and how am I going to get that support?"

"In addition, doctors who scream for help may be formally reported, therefore having restrictions placed on their practice and then incurring higher medical indemnity fees in some situations. Trainees who ask for help may be labelled as underperforming and have to be commenced on probation or remediation. We may not have practical access to the support that are often advertised."

I absolutely am in agreement with you that the things done to artificially lower the supply of residency training in the US are terrible. But those criticisms don't seem to apply to this essay.

Re:The darker side of being a doctor by lazyasciiart on Saturday April 13, 2024 @04:41PM (#40025883)
> which does not have artificial restrictions on the supply of doctors to the same extent

Yes it does. One of the really interesting questions is actually why the same problems have been created in so many otherwise-different systems.

Edit: a post giving details on the Australian medical training constraints https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_depart...

Re:The darker side of being a doctor by mlyle on Saturday April 13, 2024 @05:07PM (#40026157)
> > to the same extent

Your source says that the government sets (indirectly) a limit on the number of places at most public universities, but there are private, full-fee universities that are not so limited.

Internship slots, in turn, are set by disparate government agencies. They've climbed, but probably not climbed enough.

Compare to the US, where congress basically directly controls the number of residency slots and has failed to increase them really at all to keep up with increasing population and increasing need for medical services.

Re:The darker side of being a doctor by lll-o-lll on Saturday April 13, 2024 @08:40PM (#40027626)
This is just wrong. The supply is absolutely artificially capped, particularly for positions like surgeons. This is controlled by the Royal Australasian College of Surgeons in combination with government funding. There is no “private, full-fee universities that are not so limited” alternate path; don’t make stuff up. Source: Brother in law who is a surgeon.
Re:The darker side of being a doctor by mlyle on Saturday April 13, 2024 @09:15PM (#40027825)
> This is just wrong. The supply is absolutely artificially capped, particularly for positions like surgeons.

I feel like you don't understand the distinction about positions at universities for initial medical training vs. internship and residencies, which I believe I discussed fairly above.

see

> > Internship slots, in turn, are set by disparate government agencies. They've climbed, but probably not climbed enough.

"Disparate agencies" isn't great phrasing, though, as what I really mostly meant was "each province".

Re:The darker side of being a doctor by lazyasciiart on Sunday April 14, 2024 @05:14AM (#40029836)
To start with, you’re overestimating the role of full fee paying university places, Australia doesn’t have provinces, and the intern year is not equivalent to an American internship - that’s the registrars, and there are fewer of those than internships. (This is the position you need to get in order to begin any specialty training, such as surgery. They are very explicitly managed and funded by the federal government. https://www.anao.gov.au/work/performance-audit/administratio...)

More generally, Australia does have states and territories, but the federation model is far more centralized than the US: for instance, public hospital funding is a shared pool coordinated by federal agreement. https://www.publichospitalfunding.gov.au/victoria-basis-nati... While the vast majority of internships are at public hospitals, the federal government also pays directly to create a relatively small number of internships at private hospitals.

But of course this is all largely irrelevant because about one third of doctors in Australia completed all of their training in another country, and were then awarded a visa based largely on their profession being listed as a national priority under the system managed by the federal government.

Re:The darker side of being a doctor by kwhitefoot on Saturday April 13, 2024 @04:22PM (#40025733)
> At least in the US, there's a kind of masochistic pride in the physician community,

But the question is why does the rest of society insist that pilots be properly rested but not doctors? I'm sure a lot of pilots would also work crazy amounts of overtime if allowed.

Re:The darker side of being a doctor by ptsneves on Saturday April 13, 2024 @04:52PM (#40025995)
Not only pilots. Truck driver resting time is heavily regulated to the point the need to record start and end or they will be fined at best. Their employers will also be on the hook if drivers are non compliant.

A truck driver! But doctors? No… they are Uberhuman and can make life or death decisions after 24 hours on call and awake. Ridiculous. It is a topic that angers me a lot.

This happens in Portugal as well as Poland, it indeed feel universal. I think the reason is that doctors are kind of like gods: in the hour of your biggest need it is them that can help, therefore they are highly respected and have huge influence over a wide cross section of society. Everybody will eventually need a doctor in their life.

Another pet outrage topic related to doctors is the amount of time they need for training. They train almost 12 years after high school before they are qualified. What a wasteful training. They learn lots of generalities to the specialize in the end. With a 10 or 12 year higher education you are speaking about phd or post docs for a profession that requires 1 for every 1000 citizens. Imagine that ratio of phds and post docs. Is being a GP really requiring such training? I don’t think so and agree with above posts that their duties should be broken down, opened and delegated.

Re:The darker side of being a doctor by ta_1138 on Saturday April 13, 2024 @04:28PM (#40025785)
Pilot failures are really visible, and kill hundreds atll at once. Bad medical decisions lead to more deaths overall, but it's far less likely the public will hear it, and even if they do, it's one person at a time.

Far more people die from car crashes than airplane crashes too: It's not even close. And yet, people who have no business behind a wheel drive, and the penalties for being a poor driver are typically minimal. Same difference.

Re:The darker side of being a doctor by Scoundreller on Saturday April 13, 2024 @07:45PM (#40027270)
And the pilot is quite likely to die in any fatal pilot error, so there's an element of self-interest in preventing pilot error.
Re:The darker side of being a doctor by patall on Saturday April 13, 2024 @05:12PM (#40026201)
Because when there is no pilot, the airplane simply does not fly. Nobody dies, there is just an economic damage. But if there is no doctor, people still get ill, and then people die. Which makes it ethically easy to impose the one but not the other. And which is also the reason why pilots can go on strike, while the same is much more limited for any kind of (medical) care job.
Re:The darker side of being a doctor by al_borland on Saturday April 13, 2024 @04:43PM (#40025912)
When a pilot or a truck driver fall asleep, it’s easy to see the cause and effect. When sleeping, they can’t control the vehicle.

With other professions, the people are awake, their brain just isn’t functioning properly, so it’s easier for people to ignore the true cause, since well rested people can make mistakes too.

Re:The darker side of being a doctor by The_Blade on Saturday April 13, 2024 @04:55PM (#40026025)
I would also add the famous Bert Cooper line, "I never heard the word client in there." He mentions patients, but they are all wrapped up in a woe-is-me section I work so hard and yet I haven't been diagnosed with a mental illness.

He sounds like the kind of person that brags about being mentally sound but is secretly addicted to benzos. Always advocate for yourself!

Re:The darker side of being a doctor by schrectacular on Saturday April 13, 2024 @11:19PM (#40028366)
It's different in aviation because the pilot dies too when the plane crashes.