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Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by TexanFeller on Friday April 12, 2024 @09:35AM (#40012644)
> The most common sacrifice was taking no or fewer vacations. More than one-third of homeowners and renters (34.5%) who struggle to afford housing indicated that they skipped vacations in the past year in order to afford their monthly costs.

Vacations, at least the kind where you travel somewhere, are the definition of luxuries. It's jarring to hear about skipping them adjacent to a paragraph about skipping meals. I went on only a handful of vacations growing up, all of them staycations or domestic road trips with some other reason for going there or with someone else paying.

Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by jncfhnb on Friday April 12, 2024 @10:17AM (#40013184)
That’s just bad data storytelling. What’s more likely, that these people were planning extravagant vacations that they had to cancel? Or that they simply cannot afford vacations, and when asked if they “skipped” vacations “for monthly costs” they said yes.
Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by swatcoder on Friday April 12, 2024 @10:07AM (#40013074)
Yeah, lifestyle expectations have shifted dramatically and many people have become strongly attached to consumer luxuries and extravagences.

If you watch or read older media (fiction or non), or if you lived through it, you regularly see even middle class and professional characters living with sparse conveniences in their home and going on exactly those sort of modest road trips and motel stays you talk about and many of us remember. Trips to faraway lands, were treated as a novelty that you might bucket list once or twice rather than an annual necessity. You didn't buy a new TV until the old one broke. You talked to your neighbors and borrowed each others tools. You ate out as a treat, not because you just didn't feel like cooking that day. You planned your grocery shopping around sales and strove not to deviate from the plan while at the store.

And these expectations shifted for everyone, not just incoming generations. It wasn't a generational divide and I don't mean to stir up boomer/zoomer tension -- it was a dramatic cultural shift that almost everybody seems to have adopted without even noticing.

Exagerrated consumerism and "we are all middle class on the inside" mentality was how the West distinguished itself from its Cold War villian and now we are where we are.

Everybody needs an often-unattainable and generaly-unsustainable amount of money to fulfill a life that few would have taken seriously just a few decades earlier, and the essential dissonance is producing widespread misery and angst.

Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by mullingitover on Friday April 12, 2024 @10:37AM (#40013443)
Counterpoint: a friend of mine grew up in LA. His family, consisting of his parents and his brother, took a month long road trip vacation every year. They owned a home that is now valued at around $2 million.

They did all this solely on his father’s income, which he earned as a public school teacher.

The middle class has been gutted in the past 40 years.

Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by swatcoder on Friday April 12, 2024 @10:49AM (#40013563)
Counterpoint or anecdote?

If you're trying to say that workers in vital industries used to have access to a stable, modest suburban lifestyle negotiated by their union and that the same can't be said now, I don't disagree.

But that's a separate and compounding issue, not a competing one.

Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by mullingitover on Friday April 12, 2024 @02:54PM (#40016390)
By today's standards, being able to afford a three bedroom home in the LA metro area and raise two children on a single income, and not merely survive but be financially comfortable, isn't just a 'modest suburban lifestyle', it's an unimaginably rare privilege. Even if teachers are unionized, they aren't on the extreme high end of the income range for working class people.
Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by swatcoder on Friday April 12, 2024 @04:20PM (#40017223)
I mean, I personallg know people who live exactly that "unimaginable" life in El Monte and Baldwin Park and Rancho Cucamunga and Van Nuys and Val Verde, so I hope you know you're exaggerating for effect.

But I don't even disagree with you, as I already said. Things are hard for many people, and uncertain for many more, and in many different ways.

I was talking about one of them. You're talking about one of them. Neither contradicts the other.

Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by drewcoo on Friday April 12, 2024 @09:38PM (#40019626)
Since when are teachers working class?

I had high school teachers who worked construction (working class) jobs during the summer, but that wasn't their regular work.

Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by lurking15 on Friday April 12, 2024 @11:46AM (#40014229)
> They did all this solely on his father’s income, which he earned as a public school teacher.

This has more to do with his profession and inflation than anything about halcyon days of the middle class that socialists love to talk about when it's really just a post-war phenomenon.

Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by rufus_foreman on Friday April 12, 2024 @11:59AM (#40014377)
40 years ago the average teacher's salary was $24,000. A hotel room was around $40. Maybe less for something like a Motel 6, but for a typical vacation hotel, $40. That's just for the room, add in gas, meals, activities and you would easily have another $40 a day. So $80/day * 30 days = $2,400.

Your friend's father may have spent 1/10th of his salary on a road trip vacation every year, but that was not typical.

My anecdotal experience growing up in the 70's and 80's matches the parent comment. Vacation meant driving to grandma's house. I did not take a "real" vacation until I was in my 30's. Eating at a restaurant was something you did a few times a year. Lifestyle expectations really have changed.

Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by mullingitover on Friday April 12, 2024 @01:12PM (#40015238)
They weren't touring motels, they owned a camper and were generally road tripping to camp at national parks.
Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by ryandrake on Friday April 12, 2024 @03:21PM (#40016670)
Same experience here as a 70s-80s kid. We did one week-long "vacation" a summer at the Jersey Shore, drove the whole way, and shared a place with another family so we could afford it. I don't know where this expectation came from where a middle class family should be able to afford to jet off to France for two weeks staying in a luxurious hotel and visiting wineries or skiing in the Alps. That's always been travel for the very wealthy.

Same experience here for restaurants, too. We ate boxed macaroni-and-cheese and canned baked beans, alternating every other day. Going to a restaurant to eat was a once-every-two-months luxury.

Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by rufus_foreman on Friday April 12, 2024 @08:54PM (#40019326)
>> We ate boxed macaroni-and-cheese and canned baked beans, alternating every other day

I still eat boxed macaroni-and-cheese a few times a month :)

Although it's gluten free and I put some bacon bits in it. Fancy!

Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by babycheetahbite on Friday April 12, 2024 @10:26AM (#40013300)
Very well put. People simply don't recognize the standard of living they enjoy, because "everybody" has it.
Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by Buttons840 on Friday April 12, 2024 @10:36AM (#40013432)
Maye people simply have fewer vacation days.

Objectively, vacation days have declined and home ownership happens later in life and people have fewer children (and more have fewer children than they want).

We're doing the same work and getting less for it.

Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by gruez on Friday April 12, 2024 @09:11PM (#40019435)
>Objectively, vacation days have declined

Source?

>We're doing the same work and getting less for it.

If you're talking about absolute amounts, this is directly contradicted by the BLS data.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/LES1252881600Q

Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by rixthefox on Friday April 12, 2024 @10:29AM (#40013343)
Curious then to hear your thoughts then. If a person can't afford "vacation" what incentives do they have to take them then? Fundamentally you're saying that vacation days should be used like sick days.

So in reality the only people who can afford to have a real vacation are the ultra rich? So people like Elon Musk who feel like the world owes them attention because they are richer than any of us combined and have this constant need to flex that wealth to "own the poor" are okay?

Meanwhile these same rich people will have a heart attack if you so much as dare ask for a living wage that adjusts for inflation. How dare you take away their hard earned money? Right?

Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by bradfox2 on Friday April 12, 2024 @11:24AM (#40013984)
What is a 'real' vacation?

If it's laying on the beach for a week in Hawaii, or traveling through France, those are luxuries that should not be annual expectations.

Vacation just means having time to periodically not work for a living. Anything above that historically has been earned as a rare experience, but today is unrightfully expected.

Like OP, we went camping or to visit extended family once a year. Instagram vacations to the beach were what the rich families did.

Re:Half of U.S. Homeowners and Renters Struggle to Afford Th... by maerF0x0 on Friday April 12, 2024 @08:25PM (#40019113)
I've felt similarly about tattoos. I've never understand someone complaining about their student debt when they've been to a dozen or so countries, or have $20K of tattoos on their body, or spend more on door dash per week than I do on food per month.

I do think for some people the number gets too large and it becomes abstract. $100K debt and they think "I'll never pay this off" while they spend $1000 a month across discretionary extras.