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Re:Ronda Rousey: 'I never wanted to talk about concussion. I... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @02:03PM (#39993846)
> Jiu-Jitsu

Apropos of nothing much, where does that first I come from in "jiu-jitsu"? It's not present in the Japanese, but for some reason it appears in Portuguese even though the original vowel is a monophthong.

Re:Ronda Rousey: 'I never wanted to talk about concussion. I... by QuercusMax on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @02:37PM (#39994175)
Found this article that has some info: https://unm.wsrjj.org/spelling.pdf
Re:Ronda Rousey: 'I never wanted to talk about concussion. I... by adrian_b on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @03:08PM (#39994558)
That article has some mistakes in its details.

For instance the first article about ju-jutsu and judo that was written by Jigoro Kano and translated into English by T. Lindsay in 1888, has used the spelling "Jiujutsu", i.e. neither "jujutsu" (as written in this article) nor "jiujitsu".

In Japanese kana, in the 19th century, before the spelling reform that happened after WWII, the spelling was "jiyuu-jiyutu". The Japanese spelling might have suggested the writing of an "i" after "j" in the Latin transcription.

In the corresponding Latin alphabet spelling "jiu-jitsu", the reason why a "u" has been preserved from "jiyuu" but no "u" has been preserved from "jiyutu", is likely to have been because the first "u" is long, so it is pronounced clearly, while the second u is short, which in modern Japanese is pronounced without rounding the lips, so it does not sound like a "u". It also does not sound like a "i", because it is a back vowel, but English or French do not have this vowel, so they can render it only as either "u" or "i", and it appears that the choice has been random, because all variants are encountered in the old publications.

Re:Ronda Rousey: 'I never wanted to talk about concussion. I... by Dwedit on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @02:42PM (#39994233)
There is no "Ju" in Japanese, it's Ji+yu. じゅ or ジュ.
Re:Ronda Rousey: 'I never wanted to talk about concussion. I... by adrian_b on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @03:23PM (#39994744)
The modern transcription rules distinguish between Latin alphabet "ju" (written with small "yu") and Latin alphabet "jiyu" (written with big "yu" in kana).

So there exist both "ju" and "jiyu" and they are distinct. In "juu-jutsu" there are only "ju", there is no "jiyu" (the latter can appear only in compound words).

Before WWII, in kana there was no distinction between "ju" and "jiyu" (there was no small "yu"), so you had to know that the word written as "jiyuujiyutu" must be pronounced "juujutsu", in the same way like you had to memorize many other differences between the old Japanese spelling and pronunciation (e.g. yahara => yawara, osahe => osae, kuwatu => katsu and so on).

Re:Ronda Rousey: 'I never wanted to talk about concussion. I... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @04:58PM (#39995646)
You present old tu => new tsu as a difference in the Japanese spelling. Is it? I had the impression that "tsu" is just a western transcription, the reformed Japanese spelling is still "tu", and the sound sequence "tu" does not exist, being obligatorily "tsu".

Isn't that why English words ending in -t or -d get transcribed into Japanese with a final vowel of -o rather than the -u that is used for other final consonants?

Re:Ronda Rousey: 'I never wanted to talk about concussion. I... by adrian_b on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @06:37PM (#39996428)
I have not presented differences in spelling, but differences between the kana spelling and the corresponding pronunciation, which were much greater before WWII.

The kana syllables are grouped by their consonant, so a direct transliteration would use the same Latin consonant for all kana in a group, e.g. "ta-ti-tu-te-to", but when it is desired to suggest the English pronunciation, like in the Hepburn transliteration, that corresponds to "ta-chi-tsu-te-to".

Before WWII, the kana spelling corresponded to a much older Japanese pronunciation, from about one thousand years ago, so there were much greater differences between spelling and pronunciation. So in my examples, what was written "yahara" was pronounced "yawara" and today it is written like it is pronounced, what was written "osahe" was pronounced "osae" and today it is written like it is pronounced, what was written "kuwatu" in kana had been earlier pronounced as "kwatsu", then the pronunciation has become "katsu" (= life) and today it is written "katu" in kana and "katsu" in Hepburn transliteration.

Even when you know some Japanese, reading any book published before WWII can be difficult, because many kanji used before have been replaced with others and the kana spellings of the old kanji can also be confusing because they are different from the modern spellings too.

Re:Ronda Rousey: 'I never wanted to talk about concussion. I... by layer8 on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @06:11PM (#39996245)
“Tsu” is the Hepburn romanization, “tu” is Kunrei-shiki (and the older Nihon-shiki). The latter is nominally the official standard Japanese romanization, though there is currently a proposal to change this to Hepburn, which in practice is much more commonly used. This is strictly about transliteration, not about pronunciation. The pronunciation has always been “tsu”.

You are right about the transliteration of English words into kana.

Re:Ronda Rousey: 'I never wanted to talk about concussion. I... by thaumasiotes on Thursday April 11, 2024 @07:41AM (#40001089)
> The pronunciation has always been “tsu”.

This seems unlikely. The pronunciation was tsu before WWII. But the organization of the syllabary strongly suggests that the pronunciation was once tu.

I don't know to what degree the syllable 'tu' is viewed as impossible in Japanese as opposed to merely nonexistent. (Compare Mandarin, where (as in Japanese) there is no syllable /si/, but it's not especially difficult for Mandarin speakers to pronounce /si/.) I'd be interested if you knew.

Re:Ronda Rousey: 'I never wanted to talk about concussion. I... by layer8 on Thursday April 11, 2024 @02:53PM (#40005521)
From what I’ve read, it’s been “tsu” at least since the Heian period (so for roughly a millennium), and there is no clear evidence that it has ever been “tu”.
Re:Ronda Rousey: 'I never wanted to talk about concussion. I... by thaumasiotes on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @05:07PM (#39995735)
Sure, in the same sense that the sound at the beginning of the word "sure" doesn't exist in English, but instead is a combination of the sounds indicated by S and H.

Or in other words, complete nonsense. You can't answer a pronunciation question by appealing to spelling conventions, particularly spelling conventions that are completely divorced from the reality of pronunciation.