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Re:Porn restrictions are leading to a VPN boom by godelski on Saturday April 06, 2024 @08:00PM (#39956833)
> in any way considered “non-consensual”? Wild.

Consensual means without coercion and being of sound mind.

Let's put it this way, do you consider a quid-pro-quo scenario where a boss will promote or give a raise to a female employee if she has sex with him "consensual?" Obviously this is arguable in both directions (as we could say that this is a contract between two adults, but then again, prostitution is illegal). What about if we change this to "Have sex with your boss or be fired?" The latter case is less ambiguous, but both cases would generally be considered non-consensual in Western legal systems and has been that way for quite some time. This is nothing new...

If you understand the above but fail to think "You *must* enter the military service, for 3 years, and are likely to go to combat and have a high risk of being killed or seriously injured (physically or even more likely mentally), or you can go to jail, OR put your dick in some guy's ass" I think you can understand how that constitutes significant cohesion. If you are unable to understand this, I am here to inform you that you are overfit and not robust to general problems.

Re:Porn restrictions are leading to a VPN boom by Dylan16807 on Saturday April 06, 2024 @08:18PM (#39956942)
> hat about if we change this to "Have sex with your boss or be fired?"

Definite coercion as stated.

But if the boss is already set on firing everyone in the department, but lets one or two people stay on if they have sex with him, I consider that to be a roundabout method of quid-pro-quo prostitution. Plus embezzlement. There's no retaliation if they say no, they go home like everyone else.

And the military example is similar, there's no retaliation, most men are doing the service. The offer of an alternate option, one that very few take, is not the problem here.

Re:Porn restrictions are leading to a VPN boom by godelski on Sunday April 07, 2024 @12:17AM (#39958159)
> But if the boss is already set on firing everyone in the department, but lets one or two people stay on if they have sex with him

But we'd still call this coercion. The "dual" of this is "have sex with me or be fired." Just because not everyone gets to have that opportunity does not mean it is not the same question stated differently.

> And the military example is similar, there's no retaliation, most men are doing the service.

There is retaliation, it's called jail.

Just because others are doing it doesn't make it any less of a coercion. This scales too.

Re:Porn restrictions are leading to a VPN boom by Dylan16807 on Sunday April 07, 2024 @02:45AM (#39958713)
> Just because not everyone gets to have that opportunity does not mean it is not the same question stated differently.

To me, it matters significantly if refusing is retaliated against or is neutral.

If having sex with the boss is the difference between 0 firings and 1 firing, that's retaliation. If it's the difference between 95% fired and 100% fired, that's not retaliation.

Also we can say everyone gets the offer if that matters.

-

The other "dual" of this is a version where some employees have already been offered money for sex, but by a completely unrelated party. So if they want they can go take that offer now that they have more free time and only so much severance pay. (Also I am assuming they can get a new job easily enough; there are no destitution-based consent problems in this hypothetical.)

Does consent hinge on who is making the offer?

> There is retaliation, it's called jail.

You misunderstand me. There is no retaliation for not doing the gay sex thing. The default expectation is that you won't do it.

Retaliation for refusing to serve in the military is a different matter. And also why I think the mandatory service is where the actual consent issues are.

Re:Porn restrictions are leading to a VPN boom by valicord on Sunday April 07, 2024 @12:38AM (#39958222)
Am I understanding your position right? If you have 10 employees and say to 1 of them "have sex with me or you're fired" - that's coercion. If you have 10 employees and say to each of them (separately) "have sex with me or you're fired" - also coercion. If you have 10 employees and say to 5 "have sex with me or you're fired" and to the other 5 just "you're fired" - suddenly no longer coercion?
Re:Porn restrictions are leading to a VPN boom by Dylan16807 on Sunday April 07, 2024 @03:15AM (#39958856)
No, that's not it.

At its core, it's about whether you're trying to pressure them into sex with you.

I should have specifically said everyone gets the offer, to keep it simple. If the expectation is that basically everyone refuses, then it's not very different from walking around town and telling random people you'll hire them if they have sex with you. Which is just prostitution, not coercion.

Whether someone feels pressured is a difficult communication problem. It's hard to reduce to a simple thought experiment.

Re:Porn restrictions are leading to a VPN boom by eastbound on Saturday April 06, 2024 @08:47PM (#39957117)
Another aspect is the prevalence of bullying against gays, once pictures are taken. If gays are sometimes killed even in France (Lyon, 2015), it’s worth wondering whether you want photos of yourself at 18, in a country that could evolve both ways for the rest of your life.