News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:xz: A Microcosm of the interactions in Open Source projects by em-bee on Sunday March 31, 2024 @05:57AM (#39882869)
"I don't feel like it, if it's important to you then feel free to fork".

That's really all that's needed.

that's much harder than it sounds.

having someone fork your project can give you the feeling of loosing control over the project as potentially all your users might go with the fork. that fear is often strong enough to push yourself to do things that will avoid a fork.

it's a desire for harmony and a fear of conflict

Re:xz: A Microcosm of the interactions in Open Source projects by keybored on Sunday March 31, 2024 @08:19AM (#39883593)
This fear doesn’t harmonize with the mantra about how no one owes anyone anything. If the code is OSS then you can’t lose control over the project since you have no inherent control over it to begin with.
Re:xz: A Microcosm of the interactions in Open Source projects by arp242 on Sunday March 31, 2024 @06:11AM (#39882926)
You're right of course, but there are cultural norms and expectations at play here, which I feel need to be modified somewhat.

And that doesn't really change that things really are that simple, kind of. How do you stop smoking? By not lighting up any cigarettes. Of course it's not that simple, but ... it also kind of is.

Re:xz: A Microcosm of the interactions in Open Source projects by em-bee on Sunday March 31, 2024 @07:50AM (#39883389)
there are cultural norms and expectations at play here, which I feel need to be modified somewhat

this is an important observation.

a change of culture is really what is needed here, because it implies that not only maintainers change their behavior, but everyone involved, and the question is not so much what any individual can do for themselves, but how we can help others with that change and spread it

Re:xz: A Microcosm of the interactions in Open Source projects by arp242 on Sunday March 31, 2024 @08:20AM (#39883598)
It's impossible for everyone to change their behaviour, because that's too many people. Some people are just assholes and don't care. Or they're idiots and don't understand. Nothing we can do about that. Most people are alright, but with 8 billion people on the planet even a small percentage being an asshole means a lot of assholes.

For the most part, the people who care already care (you, me, most others commenting here) are not really the problem.

So ultimately the only thing you can do as a maintainer is set your own boundaries for yourself. And the original message in that thread ("there is no activity, what are your plans?") is a fair question, although the follow-ups are not.

All of this is true for a lot of the internet by the way. The best thing of the internet is that anyone on the planet can talk to anyone else on the planet. When I was a kid I did some ham radio with scouting, and you could talk to people from places like Russia and the US. Wow!

The worst thing of the internet is that anyone on the planet can talk to anyone else on the planet. You're constantly exposed to a seemingly never-ending stream of assholes and idiots, and a single asshole can ruin the day of dozens, hundreds, or even thousands of people every day. Maybe this is just 1% of people, but 1% of 8 billion is 80 million.

Re:xz: A Microcosm of the interactions in Open Source projects by em-bee on Sunday March 31, 2024 @11:03AM (#39884884)
i would not say it's impossible, but for sure it's an uphill battle. and it might take a few centuries for people to change, just like it took a few centuries before we abolished slavery and we are still working on racism, gender, different orientations, etc.

being nice to each other is just one of the many things that we as humans need to work on. and we are working on it, and hopefully some day we will be able to achieve it.

Re:xz: A Microcosm of the interactions in Open Source projects by barcist on Sunday March 31, 2024 @09:11AM (#39883945)
> potentially all your users might go with the fork

That's the issue right there. Why would you care?

Clearly, the maintainer is invested in having a "community". Why? They must expect something positive coming out of it, so they are invested in having that community, which then means they have something to lose if that community moves somewhere else and they are left behind.

That's what enables this social exploit. A takeaway can be not to get so invested in having a community. These are users of your software, and their "utility" is in helping find bugs, perhaps suggest improvements or even provide patches, making the thing you as the original author made better. But that can clearly become a burden.

Re:xz: A Microcosm of the interactions in Open Source projects by ploxiln on Sunday March 31, 2024 @09:47AM (#39884211)
I'm reminded of this recent post about the Redis fork to be maintained by Drew Devault: https://andrewkelley.me/post/redis-renamed-to-redict.html

> Redict is a Finished Product

> Drew is a controversial person

(he's been rude/mean in the past)

xz should be pretty much finished as well, major overhauls like the "ifunc" feature to inject alternate function implementations are not really justified. Beware of busybodies and this whole "the community demands vibrant evolution of the project" thing. xz does its job already!

And being rude/mean is not a plus, it's a minus, but it does seem to correlate strongly with leading a high-quality project. Even if it's not the best way, this person has the guts to say no in unequivocal terms. You might just have to accept the downside of a rude/mean maintainer as a common unwanted side-effect of an effective maintainer. (Linus Torvalds also comes to mind of course.)

Re:xz: A Microcosm of the interactions in Open Source projects by forgotmyinfo on Sunday March 31, 2024 @10:08AM (#39884414)
It's important to note that rudeness is somewhat up for interpretation. Rejecting a patch because it's full of bugs might be considered rude to some people, but not to me. There are definitely times where Drew rubs me the wrong way, but I know he's good at what he does, and I know he's just as fed up as I am about the nonsense. He doesn't suffer fools, and that can seem rude and mean if, well, you're a fool. (To be clear, he's been totally out of line before, but I know he's been working hard to change that, and I think he's been successful.)
Re:xz: A Microcosm of the interactions in Open Source projects by UncleEntity on Sunday March 31, 2024 @11:18AM (#39885033)
I've made absolutely stupid 'contributions' to open source projects in the past, not out of malice but pure ignorance.

If someone had slapped me down for being an idiot I'd have most definitely found something else to spend my free time on.

Today, I'm not super great at coding but can hunt down segfaults like a truffle pig and submit bug reports (with code) that demonstrates the exact issue if it's something I can't figure out on my own.

Re:xz: A Microcosm of the interactions in Open Source projects by saagarjha on Monday April 01, 2024 @07:32PM (#39900647)
xz sees continual improvement to e.g. make it faster. ifuncs are an important part of that. If you want to use the garbage slow version of xz that’s up to you but I don’t think most people would want this.
Re:xz: A Microcosm of the interactions in Open Source projects by account42 on Monday April 08, 2024 @11:31AM (#39970741)
> xz sees continual improvement to e.g. make it faster.

Yes, that makes sense.

> ifuncs are an important part of that.

No, IFUNCs have absolutely zero performance benefit over regular function pointers for internal functions. If anything, they can limit optimization oppertunities the compiler has with other approaches. The only benefit IFUNCs bring is being able to avoid another indirection when replacing already exported library functions in their entirety. That's what they are there for - different optimized implementations for things like memcpy in glibc.

Re:xz: A Microcosm of the interactions in Open Source projects by saagarjha on Wednesday April 10, 2024 @06:53AM (#39989252)
Sure they do: they’re transparent to applications.