News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by adrr on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @06:05PM (#39833388)
I don't understand how FB can decrypt other apps network traffic. TLS will fail if they tried a man in the middle attack even if they had VPN software installed on the device.
Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by yusaydat on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @06:10PM (#39833425)
They asked users of the VPN service to install a certificate, that's how they did it.
Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by blcknight on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @06:43PM (#39833678)
The TC article leaves that a little unclear: were they actually looking at the plaintext or just gathering metrics about snapchat usage? The latter wouldn't require decrypting the session.

If Onavo did install a certificate and MITM the connections and send private user data to Meta... that's beyond the pale. That's far more worthy of a cover story than Bloomberg's debunked secretive tiny chips story from a few years ago. It's equally as bad if not worse.

Hopefully the technical details will come out.

Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by rpdillon on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @06:58PM (#39833777)
This is the first sentence of the article:

> In 2016, Facebook launched a secret project designed to intercept and decrypt the network traffic between people using Snapchat’s app and its servers.

I read the rest of the article as well, and saw only confirmation:

> Given that Snapchat encrypted the traffic between the app and its servers, this network analysis technique was not going to be effective. This is why Facebook engineers proposed using Onavo, which when activated had the advantage of reading all of the device’s network traffic before it got encrypted and sent over the internet.

Where do you see the ambiguity? Other than the weasel words about proposing these programs (versus actually running them), it seems clear that they were decrypting the traffic (or reading it before it was encrypted). Did I miss a piece?

Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by blcknight on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @07:07PM (#39833855)
> This is why Facebook engineers proposed using Onavo, which when activated had the advantage of reading all of the device’s network traffic before it got encrypted and sent over the internet.

This doesn't make sense, they wouldn't see the traffic before it was encrypted. They would see it encrypted, but using the MITM certificate instead of Snapchat's. Given the inaccuracies in the article, it makes me wonder what else they got wrong.

Using a VPN client to monitor how much, when, and where traffic is going is bad, but MITM'ing a user's connection is much, much worse. I'm really skeptical that's what happened, especially given TC's inability to articulate accurately what Facebook did.

Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by blakesterz on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @07:18PM (#39833960)
That was pretty much the point of Onavo: https://techcrunch.com/2019/02/21/facebook-removes-onavo/
Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by blcknight on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @07:30PM (#39834044)
> Onavo [...] would collect the “Time you spend using apps, mobile and Wi-Fi data you use per app, the websites you visit, and your country, device and network type.”

That's the former type of collection I was talking about. There's no evidence I can find that they installed a root CA certificate and were MITM'ing connections. That's a major accusation and one that is not accurate as far as I can tell.

Apple banned the app because it was inspecting underlying traffic not installing a fake root certificate: https://techcrunch.com/2019/01/30/apple-bans-facebook-vpn/

Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by snowwrestler on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @10:50PM (#39835226)
You are quoting what Facebook claimed the app did.

The language in the lawsuit complaint is explicit that FB installed a root cert to MITM and decrypt traffic:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39835115

Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by blcknight on Friday March 29, 2024 @02:07PM (#39867148)
Thanks, that's crystal clear that they were indeed doing this. Wow.
Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by thejefflarson on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @12:44AM (#39835775)
See page two of the document: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.36...

Seems pretty clear that they could decrypt the traffic they were interested in, they also talk about 5 years of retention of all traffic that they can decrypt at anytime. Sound familiar?

Looks like they used a squid feature: https://wiki.squid-cache.org/Features/SslBump

Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by snowwrestler on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @10:28PM (#39835115)
> Facebook's IAAP Program used nation-state-level hacking technology developed by the company's Onavo team, in which Facebook paid contractors (including teens) to designate Facebook a trusted "root" Certificate Authority on their mobile devices, then generated fake digital certificates to redirect secure Snapchat analytics traffic (and later, analytics from YouTube and Amazon) from Snapchat's servers to Onavo's; decrypted these analytics and used them for competitive gain, including to inform Facebook's product strategy; reencrypted them; and sent them up to Snapchat's servers as though it came straight from Snapchat's app, with Facebook's Social Advertising competitor none the wiser.

https://x.com/jason_kint/status/1772671792361992351

Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by esafak on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @12:09AM (#39835627)
Could Snapchat have detected this? What is the defense for this type of attack?
Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by semiquaver on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @01:04AM (#39835833)
Certificate pinning would defeat this. Bake it into your app that you only trust a specific certificate regardless of what is in the system trust store.
Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by hifromwork on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @01:13PM (#39841864)
Interestingly, not always. For example apple computers will intentionally ignore your pinning attempts in some cases: https://daniel.haxx.se/blog/2024/03/08/the-apple-curl-securi...
Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by semiquaver on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @01:45PM (#39842299)
Yikes, that’s a good reason not to use the system LibreSSL or curl provided with macOS.
Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by chedabob on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @06:31AM (#39837398)
Cert Pinning and Certificate Transparency should block the decryption, even on a VPN where the user has installed a custom root certificate.

It wouldn't stop them seeing what domains the user is going to (as it's sent in plaintext because of SNI, and ECH was still a few years away).

Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by immibis on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @07:09AM (#39837603)
The same techniques make it more difficult for a user/developer to figure out what their device is doing.
Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by specialist on Tuesday March 26, 2024 @11:14PM (#39835345)
That's (corporate) espionage.
Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by Grimblewald on Friday March 29, 2024 @11:09AM (#39865007)
User behaviour is not company property.
Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by Biganon on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @02:52AM (#39836290)
How is that "hacking"? The test subjects willingly modified their CA store, nothing can be made against that, it's users choosing who should receive data sent by their device (I mean certificate pinning could help).

Reminds me of TV users willingly plugging a box into their TV that sends usage data to a statistics institute

Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by itopaloglu83 on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @05:26AM (#39837008)
> The test subjects willingly modified their CA store, …

I don’t think users knew what they were consenting to. Only a small percentage of the population know what a Certificate Authority is. And also “monitoring traffic” doesn’t carry the weight of “we are going to listen to your private conversations”.

Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by ClumsyPilot on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @06:23AM (#39837345)
> willingly modified their CA store

In the same way a patient might willingly consent to some highly specific chemical treatment being replaced with another highly specific chemical - they have no idea, they rely on the doctor not to purposefully mislead them. You could put anything in those forms and most people would trust the professional is at least not allowed to defraud them.

Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by laweijfmvo on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @05:18PM (#39844717)
“I can’t think of a good argument for why this is okay. No security person is ever comfortable with this, no matter what consent we get from the general public. The general public just doesn’t know how this stuff works,” Canahuati wrote in an email, included in the court documents.
Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by Biganon on Friday March 29, 2024 @10:09AM (#39864309)
I'm not saying it's ethical, I'm saying it's not hacking

Or maybe it's a weak, uninteresting form of social engineering, but even that's a stretch IMO

Re:Facebook snooped on users' Snapchat traffic in secret pro... by xk_id on Wednesday March 27, 2024 @06:20AM (#39837317)
Paying users to install a root certificate on their devices is “nation-state-level hacking technology”? What nonsense.