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Re:Please learn to write by MartinCron on Wednesday May 16, 2012 @02:28PM (#3983323)
Did I just end that sentence with a preposition?

A preposition is a perfectly acceptable thing to end a sentence with. Seriously. If you find yourself re-writing it as "with which to end a sentence" you're going to come across as stilted and awkward.

Re:Please learn to write by madhadron on Wednesday May 16, 2012 @04:37PM (#3983903)
Eschewing trailing prepositions is a rule improperly inherited from Latin. It does not apply to Germanic tongues where prepositions are necessary to disambiguate verbs. For example, to ask about, to ask of, to ask to, and to ask in are very quite distinct. In Latin, the default position of the verb is the end of the sentence. Latin word order isn't fixed like English, so the ordering of words is a form of emphasis, and placing something in the final position, after the verb, is one of the strongest emphases possible. Putting a preposition in that position would be like someone screaming "WITH! WITH!" on a soapbox on the street corner.

It's a useful rule though: an English grammar book that proscribes trailing prepositions is one you needn't spend any more time with. Just put it down and forget that it exists.

Like so many other rules, it results from Latin-steeped scholars of the 19th century who were uncomfortable with the flexibility of their native tongue, and attempted to hem it round. It's understandable. These men knew they could use the full scope of expression of Latin. About the only person who's ever pushed English hard enough to make it creak was James Joyce.

Amusing aside: you can transform transitive verbs into nouns in English directly (to request, a request). You can't similarly transform intransitive verbs because they require a preposition. In German, you would say a for-ask or an of-ask, but we don't accept that in English. Verbs with both forms are an interesting grey area, such as to dig vs to dig for.

Re:Please learn to write by FreakLegion on Wednesday May 16, 2012 @09:15PM (#3984891)
< Latin word order isn't fixed like English

It isn't fixed like English, but parts of it are indeed fixed, prepositions being one of them. The issue isn't that putting a preposition at the end of a sentence in Latin gives the preposition undue emphasis, but rather that you simply can't put a preposition at the end of a sentence in Latin[1]. Ending an English sentence with an article would be roughly similar in terms of nonsensicality. As for Joyce, well, you know he's binomeans to be comprendered!

1. It's the same with split infinitives, which you just can't do in Latin short of tmesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tmesis#Latin).

Re:Please learn to write by adavies42 on Wednesday May 16, 2012 @05:54PM (#3984231)
nicely written.

> You can't similarly transform intransitive verbs because they require a preposition. In German, you would say a for-ask or an of-ask, but we don't accept that in English.

i think i'll have a bit of a lie-down now....

Re:Please learn to write by telemachos on Wednesday May 16, 2012 @07:11PM (#3984551)
> I think I'll have a bit of a lie-down now...

Maybe in your lean-to? (Only other example I can think of quickly.)

More seriously, thanks to the grand-parent for squelching the preposition nonsense so soundly.

Re:Please learn to write by thisishugo on Wednesday May 16, 2012 @03:07PM (#3983511)
Unless writing for a scientific journal, or some other such formal setting, your goal of clear communication will be best served by using a casual, conversational style that resonates as closely as possible with how you would talk to your reader in person.

That means prepositions are very much something you can end a sentence with. And you can start one with a conjunctive too, if it feels right. The rules of grammar are more like the pirate code than an ISO standard - they're more what you might call guidelines, really.

Re:Please learn to write by mikebike on Wednesday May 16, 2012 @10:44PM (#3985110)
I think we'd be better served using such styles in scientific journals more often.

As an example, here's a wonderfully written article by the late statistician, Jacob Cohen: http://www.ics.uci.edu/~sternh/courses/210/cohen94_pval.pdf

Re:Please learn to write by disgruntledphd2 on Sunday May 20, 2012 @10:48AM (#3998884)
Just to note, although he wrote far more on statistics, he was a psychologist born and bred.
Re:Please learn to write by nollidge on Wednesday May 16, 2012 @04:31PM (#3983879)
Agreed. Grammar's just norms of communication, and norms depend on context. So treat the violation of them as such - sometimes it matters, sometimes it don't.
Re:Please learn to write by sitkack on Thursday May 17, 2012 @02:16AM (#3985722)
Apropos, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7E-aoXLZGY it would seem this whole topic is rather inflammable.
Re:Please learn to write by jeffpersonified on Wednesday May 16, 2012 @03:44PM (#3983667)
All is dependent on audience.
Re:Please learn to write by crazygringo on Wednesday May 16, 2012 @07:13PM (#3984559)
"This is the kind of arrant pedantry up with which I will not put."

-- Winston Churchill, on not ending sentences with prepositions

Re:Please learn to write by gruseom on Wednesday May 16, 2012 @11:37PM (#3985271)
Alas, there's no evidence Churchill ever said it.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Winston_Churchill

Re:Please learn to write by nakkiel on Thursday May 17, 2012 @02:42AM (#3985787)
Didn't he patent Facebook too?
Re:Please learn to write by eropple on Wednesday May 16, 2012 @05:48PM (#3984210)
I'm not against ending a sentence with a preposition, but I find myself often unconsciously avoiding doing it in speech as well as in writing. I don't really find it stilted (but I don't care about the issue one way or another). I say "what are you talking about?" about as naturally as I do "On which machine does this process run?".