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Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by vel0city on Friday March 22, 2024 @10:56AM (#39791347)
That sounds like exceptionally poor planning. Just to confirm, the new airport served pretty much only international flights? It should have been the nexus for domestic travel to connect to the big hop to Europe, meaning it should have had a ton of domestic routes as well feeding it.
Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by TRDRVR on Friday March 22, 2024 @11:08AM (#39791474)
It's the main counterexample to 'The Olympics are good because they force the development of infrastructure that otherwise wouldn't get built' argument.

Many of the weird choices about that airport was made so it would be open and useful for the 1976 Olympics. The location was closer to Montreal (but father from Ottawa) in part to make the international arrival experience better for the fans (not for the long-term users of the airport). The plan was 'International flights in time for the Olympics and Domestic flights a couple of years later' as a way to 'show off to the world.'

All this rushing and purpose-building led to suboptimal decision making that ultimately made it a completely wasted investment.

A similar story can be told about Olympic stadium in Montreal.

Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by sofixa on Friday March 22, 2024 @11:36AM (#39791736)
> It's the main counterexample to 'The Olympics are good because they force the development of infrastructure that otherwise wouldn't get built' argument.

> Many of the weird choices about that airport was made so it would be open and useful for the 1976 Olympics. The location was closer to Montreal (but father from Ottawa) in part to make the international arrival experience better for the fans (not for the long-term users of the airport). The plan was 'International flights in time for the Olympics and Domestic flights a couple of years later' as a way to 'show off to the world.'

That's just poor and short sighted planning, nothing specific for the Olympics. Paris for instance isn't making any such short term infrastructure decisions, only rushing to finish some stuff before the Olympics (e.g. line 14 to Orly, while failing others like line 15 South which was supposed to be ready but won't).

Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by bluGill on Friday March 22, 2024 @12:44PM (#39792431)
It is a common enough thing with the olympics to consider it specific to the olympics even though it hapbens elsewhere.
Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by thaumasiotes on Friday March 22, 2024 @11:25AM (#39791640)
I thought the main counterexample to that argument was the fact that it has never worked anywhere.

From what I've heard, the Olympics have failed to benefit every city that's hosted them except LA, and the reason they were good for LA was specifically that no new infrastructure was built to accommodate them.

Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by Mvandenbergh on Friday March 22, 2024 @12:08PM (#39792062)
London as well, or at least broke even. (Although of course this is complicated to assess and contested).

Same reason, all infrastructure was either already there or usable after (the Olympic stadium was sold to a football team).

Generally the larger a city is, the better able it is to host an event like this for obvious reasons.

Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by mdtusz on Friday March 22, 2024 @11:46AM (#39791834)
Many will disagree with me, but the Vancouver Olympics prompted construction of some things that I would consider vital to the Sea to Sky region - the highway upgrade being the biggest.
Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by rqtwteye on Friday March 22, 2024 @11:41AM (#39791789)
I think Munich did well in 1972. They got a lot of public transport and most of the sports facilities are used a lot.
Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by Andrex on Friday March 22, 2024 @04:02PM (#39794246)
Shame about the security, though.
Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by mdtusz on Friday March 22, 2024 @11:46AM (#39791833)
Many will disagree with me, but the Vancouver Olympics prompted construction of some things that I would consider vital to the Sea to Sky region - the highway upgrade being the biggest.
Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by reaperducer on Friday March 22, 2024 @11:39AM (#39791764)
Just to confirm, the new airport served pretty much only international flights?

It was a pretty common urban planning concept for a large city to have one airport devoted mostly or entirely to domestic flights, and one mostly or entirely for international flights.

   New York domestic: EWR
   New York international: JFK
   New York freight: LGA
   Chicago domestic: MDW
   Chicago international: ORD
   Houston domestic: HOU
   Houston international: IAH
   Dallas domestic: LUV
   Dallas international: DFW
   Paris international: CGD
   Paris international: ORY
   Washington domestic: DCA
   Washington international: IAD
Notice how some airports (IAD, IAH) specifically have "International Airport" in their codes.

It worked fine for a very long time until the airlines optimized into the hub-and-spoke system we have today, where connecting flights has become normalized.

Because people think now it's normal to have connecting flights all the time, the domestic airports have added international flights, and vice-versa.

What was once orderly and predictable has become very messy, and had a number of other side-effects.

Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by vel0city on Friday March 22, 2024 @11:48AM (#39791864)
LUV is an airport in Indonesia, Dallas Love Field is DAL. DAL was forced to be a domestic-only airport from the Wright amendment as DFW was way the hell out in the middle of nowhere in '79, nobody would have bothered going out there if they weren't forced to by federal law. American Airlines wanted an airport, and the federal government gave it to them.

And sure, IAH is the bigger international airport in Houston, but it also carries an absolutely massive amount of domestic travel as well. My comment was about having an airport be almost exclusively international travel with few domestic connections.

Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by masklinn on Friday March 22, 2024 @03:03PM (#39793728)
> DAL was forced to be a domestic-only airport from the Wright amendment as DFW was way the hell out in the middle of nowhere in '79, nobody would have bothered going out there if they weren't forced to by federal law. American Airlines wanted an airport, and the federal government gave it to them.

That's more than a little revisionist: following the CAB's demand for a joint international-class airport (Dallas refused to use GSW, and DAL had gotten way too small for the traffic, and its runways too small for international jets), Dallas, Fort Worth, and the existing airlines signed an agreement to phase out cross-state operations at local airports and move them all to DFW. When DFW opened, all the airlines moved their non-local operations there per the agreement.

Except Southwest, who'd been created after the agreement, decided they were not bound by it, and enjoyed a now empty and easily accessible airport. And since Southwest's operations were initially intrastate, they didn't fall under CAB jurisdiction, which was the reason for DFW existing in the first place.

The Airline Deregulation Act of 1978 then meant Southwest was able to expand to interstate traffic without being restrictible by a dying CAB.

Wright was passed to protect an airport which CAB had all but forced on the area (though to be fair CAB was paying for airports, which was why they wanted them regrouped). Plus bankrupting DFW would have completely broken DAL and aviation to the region.

Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by vel0city on Friday March 22, 2024 @03:51PM (#39794155)
Thanks for informing me to the history of the CAB decisions. In the end though, it still seems like American and Braniff weren't happy people were sticking it out with Love instead of their larger and fancier airport, and deregulation gave people the market to choose which airport they really wanted to go to until the Wright amendment forced people again. Even knowing this additional history of it being a joint decision pre-deregulation, I'd still argue my earlier viewpoint still has a good bit of truth to it. American Airlines (and a few others) wanted people to use the new airport instead of the airport the people wanted and got Congress to force people to go to DFW. GSW failed because people didn't really want it. DFW would have failed post deregulation as well if the federal government didn't force it to succeed.

FWIW I do agree this was ultimately a good thing in the end though. It would not have been good for DFW airport to fail, and the region definitely did need a larger airport.

It seems like we do agree with this line though:

> nobody would have bothered going out there if they weren't forced to by federal law.

Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by sumtechguy on Friday March 22, 2024 @11:46AM (#39791828)
I too thought 'international' in the name meant something. Until I worked with a guy who was into gliders. They named the large empty grass field that you had to drive for an hour to get to an 'international' airport. It was basically just enough to get a very small airplane aloft with a glider attached. They thought it was funny they pulled it off.
Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by reaperducer on Friday March 22, 2024 @11:47AM (#39791847)
"International" in the name of an airport signifies that it is certified to receive international flights.

I'm pointing out the use of "International" in airport codes, not names.

Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by sumtechguy on Monday March 25, 2024 @11:28AM (#39817537)
you would think that.... This 'runway'/grass field was named an international. They thought it was funny to do. The naming group did not really seem to care all they cared about was the letter code was unique.
Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by bluGill on Friday March 22, 2024 @12:48PM (#39792495)
International means customs is there when you land your plane. Tiny airports near borders tend to be international while larger ones far away are not as nobody flies the from elsewhere anyway. some airports you need to make an appointment or customes will not be there.
Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by sumtechguy on Monday March 25, 2024 @11:29AM (#39817561)
It is a convention. And apparently not mandated anywhere. This grass field was in the middle of north carolina. It had a small building they kept their gliders in and another small shed for parts.
Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by chrisdhal on Friday March 22, 2024 @02:46PM (#39793554)
> Notice how some airports (IAD, IAH) specifically have "International Airport" in their codes.

Since this is HN, we'll get ultra-pedantic...

IAH is technically "Intercontinental Airport of Houston", not "international" for some reason (full name is "George Bush Intercontinental Airport").

Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by sofixa on Friday March 22, 2024 @03:13PM (#39793821)
> It was a pretty common urban planning concept for a large city to have one airport devoted mostly or entirely to domestic flights, and one mostly or entirely for international flights.

Which, like urban highways, really doesn't make a sense in most cases if one spends a few minutes thinking about it. And especially doesn't make sense for an airport whose main traffic is connecting international and domestic flights.

Urban planners in many places in the 1950-1990 time were... special. Blindly copying bullshit that didn't make sense originally and definitely didn't make sense in their city.

Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by sofixa on Friday March 22, 2024 @11:33AM (#39791718)
> Just to confirm, the new airport served pretty much only international flights

Yes, they decided they'll try to do it like Paris with CDG and Orly, but fundamentally misunderstood the differences the traffic - Orly mostly serves tourist destinations or places where lots of people living and working in France have origins in such as Portugal and the Maghreb from where there will be limited amounts of changes to international flights; and Air France is abandoning Orly and focusing entirely on CDG because even the small opportunity misses aren't worth the extra costs. And both are well connected to the city they're serving, including to each other with the RER B (okay it takes 1h30m, but at least it's a mostly direct connection). And CDG even has high speed rail to other cities.

Montreal isn't even close in terms of traffic patterns... and even if it was, the connectivity to Montreal (and ideally Ottawa) really wasn't there.

Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by londons_explore on Friday March 22, 2024 @11:14AM (#39791520)
"exceptionally poor planning" is common in big projects like this.

As soon as the design/planning teams gets big enough that there are many people who barely know eachother, they start competing to the detriment of the whole...

Nobody wants their part late/over budget, so they do things to screw other parts of the project just so their part isn't late or over budget.

Re:Why is it so hard to build an airport? by bombcar on Friday March 22, 2024 @11:38AM (#39791758)
You also have large groups of various entities brawling over it, and you end up with compromises - where compromise means nobody is happy about anything.