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Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by gklitz on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:07AM (#39525710)
What a reductive attitude. If your planes fall from the sky because a single employee is negligent. The ones to blame isn’t the worker, the union or the state. It’s your business that has key deficiencies in implementing safety.

Your QC process has to be able to catch these things. It’s not like you can avoid any reliability in your process and just lean back and be like “don’t worry bro, it’ll fly, we hired all non-union workers”

Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by hinkley on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:12AM (#39525768)
This also sounds like someone in the New Boeing management chain. A lot of these culture problems were already evident during the 787 program, which is when MD’s mismanagement started to fester. And when the hardon for union busting first came to my attention.
Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by beaeglebeached on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:11AM (#39525762)
What a reductive attitude. Nah not just one negligent worker. Many, including QC staff.
Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by ethbr1 on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:16AM (#39525831)
> The ones to blame isn’t the worker, the union or the state. It’s your business that has key deficiencies in implementing safety.

I don't think you're charitably reading parent.

Sometimes, the employee is the problem. And sometimes, union contracts preclude changing processes (or make change unnecessarily burdensome) to improve outcomes.

Introducing another party into agreements doesn't come free.

I'm as pro-union as anyone around here... but it is another level of bureaucracy. And sometimes, protecting "our people" can include not letting go people who should be let go (e.g. decreasing headcount in assembly to hire more professional QA people).

That said, solutions do need to come from all levels, and I think unions do provide a necessary counter-pressure to management deciding only employees need to bear the brunt of change.

Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by shagie on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:24AM (#39525942)
> where certain difficult to fire union parasites have a stranglehold

> where such fatally negligent parasitic workers can be easily shit canned

How charitable of a read does one need to give a comment that uses pejorative and hyperbolic language without providing any substantive refutation?

Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by ethbr1 on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @01:05PM (#39527291)
Forums improve through ignoring hyperbolic language, not responding to it.
Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by acdha on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @02:45PM (#39528761)
Forums improve by rejecting rude and deceptive language - as Gen. Morrison said, the standard you walk past is the standard you accept.
Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by ethbr1 on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @04:11PM (#39530031)
Agree to disagree. IMHO, there are more people who thrive on internet conflict than thrive on being ignored.

It takes self control, but walking past the problem is sometimes the more effective solution.

"Man, that asshole on the Internet disagreed with me. I'm going to write a detailed rebuttal of why they're the asshole."

vs.

"Hunh, I wonder why I occasionally get down voted and no one ever responds to me? And also, the responses I do get are a lot nicer in tone than mine..."

Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by acdha on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @04:56PM (#39530641)
You’re right that there is a challenge about giving attention when that’s what they’re seeking. I generally prefer either flagging (worse cases) or up-voting the one person who left a “dude, not cool” reply so they get clear community feedback.
Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by zettabomb on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:30AM (#39526027)
Perhaps the worker is at fault, but in (good) aerospace companies one person's mistake cannot lead to a bad unit going out the door. At the very least, two people need to be wrong in the same way - but more likely, several people would need to miss the problem.

That being said, "operator error" as a reason for a problem is heavily discouraged (at least in official reports). Rather, it's typical to blame a human factors issue, commonly one of the "dirty dozen" [0]. I couldn't say exactly which ones are present at Boeing but frankly, from the public reports almost all of them sound applicable. With this in mind, process change is the only appropriate remedy, regardless of what the union thinks. I've never heard any union people get mad at something that improves their job though.

[0] https://skybrary.aero/articles/human-factors-dirty-dozen

Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by Zigurd on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:22AM (#39525908)
I wouldn't put it past Boeing management to try to move more production to South Carolina. In fact they put the 787 there thinking that the 787 would be the future of Boeing. It isn't, and it can't be, because of the problems in developing and building the 787. So their move to a anti-union state ended up being a dead end.

In the 787 project they pushed outsourcing of design to their suppliers so they could reduce dependence on their own engineers. That was a disaster. They spun out Spirit Aerosystems to fragment their unionized manufacturing workers. The same Jack Welch influence via Harry Stonecipher sets the management tone even today. It's the wrong culture.

They need to move headquarters and production of their next plane back to the Pacific Northwest, and they need to develop the next plane not in the way that they developed the 787 which was which was designed to be a thumb in the eye of the union and their engineers. It's a cultural problem. Look at the word cultural throughout the FAA report. The culture that Boeing had doesn't work, and they need to change it root and branch.

Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by hinkley on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:15AM (#39525810)
Yeah because the QC of the Carolina plant has been sooooo great.

Airlines are trying to get ahold of the planes built in Everett because the SC plant planes have quality control issues still, ten years in.

Pull the other one.

Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by bumby on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:42AM (#39526190)
Can you point to where a union employee was a root cause of the Max debacle? Because as I read it, most of the mistakes were of a design nature (i.e., mistakes of white-collar employees). Your comment reads like you started with a conclusion and worked backwards.
Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by beaeglebeached on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @12:02PM (#39526433)
Look up SPEEA
Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by bumby on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @02:41PM (#39528717)
The existence of a labor union does not make your point. You point to an industry group; I'm asking if there is a specific instance in the Boeing 737Max mishaps that is attributed to a union-member disregarding generally good safety practices by the very nature of being defended by the union. I'm not aware of one, but the opposite is true: white-collar decisions can be shown to be direct contributors to the problem(s), and I don't think they have anything to do with union membership.

E.g., Boeing did not 1) classify MCAS correctly in their hazard analysis, and 2) even with their mischaracterized risk in the HA, they did not follow their own procedures to have redundant sensor readings mandatory for the equipment as classified. Those are designer decisions, not some labor-union issue. To my knowledge, those held responsible were relatively high level engineers, implying they were not being protected by the union for their decisions.

Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by Mordisquitos on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:33AM (#39526070)
Wait till you hear how "difficult to fire" it is at Airbus assembly locations in Germany, Spain and France, and how unionised the workforces of these countries are... and yet Airbus doesn't ostensibly have a "fatally negligent parasitic workers" problem having an impact on its airliner safety. How come?
Re:Boeing missing key elements of safety culture: FAA report by beaeglebeached on Tuesday February 27, 2024 @11:39AM (#39526149)
It could be worker organization in Europe is mutually cooperative rather than antagonistic as often found in USA.