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Re:Plastic experts say recycling is a scam. Should we even d... by cfr2023 on Saturday February 24, 2024 @11:41AM (#39492885)
Is there no value in merely separating and gathering this material, even if it's all dumped in a "plastics only" landfill, as opposed to one containing other types of trash?

Isn't keeping different types of waste sorted inherently useful in other ways?

Re:Plastic experts say recycling is a scam. Should we even d... by Arn_Thor on Saturday February 24, 2024 @11:49AM (#39492960)
I suspect you’re right. From my hometown’s local waste authority: After [we have] collected the waste from your bin, the purple dotted bag [with plastic waste] is sent on for collection and pressing before being transported to large sorting facilities in Northern Germany and other places in Europe. Here, 75% of the content in the purple dotted bag (figures from 2019) is recycled, and the remaining waste (often residual waste and food waste that has been incorrectly sorted) is utilized for energy.

And more detail: This is how household plastic is recycled: Collected plastic packaging is first finely sorted in Germany, before moving on to recyclers in the same country or elsewhere in Europe. We differentiate between the recycling of household plastic, which is the plastic you sort at home, and plastic packaging from businesses. - The plastic packaging you sort at home is collected by the municipality or an inter-municipal waste company. They press the plastic together into large bales. - Plastretur transports the plastic to a sorting facility. - At the sorting facility, incorrect sorting and contaminants are removed. This can include paper and metal, or other items that ended up in the wrong collection at your home. - Additionally, the plastic is sorted into different qualities, and non-recyclable packaging is removed. The sorting facilities classify the plastic into several plastic qualities such as PP, LDPE, HDPE, PET before it is transported to a recycling plant. - At the recycling plant, the plastic is washed. This process also removes labels and glue. - Then it is ground and melted into small beads, called pellets. Pellets are a raw material that can be used to make new products from recycled plastic.

Re:Plastic experts say recycling is a scam. Should we even d... by bombcar on Saturday February 24, 2024 @12:04PM (#39493102)
> remaining waste is used for energy

This really is the key - if people weren't so scared of incinerators, the "landfill" problem would be basically solved.

Re:Plastic experts say recycling is a scam. Should we even d... by infecto on Saturday February 24, 2024 @01:16PM (#39493765)
I still don’t fully understand. Would there be unwanted gasses coming out? Could we not burn the specific plastics where it’s economically worth it for electric generation? I don’t know the full science so my assumptions might be wrong but I wonder how much worse it is compared to coal and natty gas plants?
Re:Plastic experts say recycling is a scam. Should we even d... by anticorporate on Saturday February 24, 2024 @11:52AM (#39492985)
Probably, but, separating is actually a really hard problem. People do not do as good of a job separating their own recycling as they think they do. Others don't care at all. MRFs are expensive due to maintenance, labor, and other operating costs, and if there's no cost recovered from the recycling there's little to fund their existence.
Re:Plastic experts say recycling is a scam. Should we even d... by cfr2023 on Saturday February 24, 2024 @12:11PM (#39493178)
Valuable considerations.

Seems like a perfect machine learning/robotics application, but probably not one that will receive funding if it's pitched with the objective of, "look now all of this problematic crap is in one place."

Re:Plastic experts say recycling is a scam. Should we even d... by amluto on Saturday February 24, 2024 @12:17PM (#39493215)
I don’t think separating the disgusting mess in mixed recycling is an ML/robotics problem. Neither robots nor human hands can turn food-splattered paper into clean recyclable paper. Nor can they turn plastic/paper composite materials into anything else. Or dirty plastic bags or dirty polystyrene foam or (yuck!) fluorinated HDPE.
Re:Plastic experts say recycling is a scam. Should we even d... by cfr2023 on Saturday February 24, 2024 @01:28PM (#39493891)
Fair observations but, doesn't this assume that disposal and containment are truly our only options now and forever?

Even so, you think there would be no worthy efficiency gains for pure sorting or materials mining in using machines that can identify known objects effectively, and hands that will go where humans will not?

Re:Plastic experts say recycling is a scam. Should we even d... by amluto on Sunday February 25, 2024 @11:02AM (#39501860)
There are solutions that don’t involve reaching into the mess and sorting it.

Some places incinerate their waste for energy. If done well, pollution (except CO2) is minimal, and the outputs are energy and ash. Perhaps some day the ash could be processed to extract useful minerals.

More generally, if you imagine waste to be a clumpy soup of organic goo, assorted interesting elements and minerals, and polymers (which are technically organic goo but are sort of worthy of a different category), perhaps it could be treated as such and processes could be developed to economically extract useful things from it, kind of like how geological processes turn dead cells into oil.

But I see no fundamental reason that, say, old polyester needs to turn into new polyester as opposed to anything else. And keep in mind that, even if burnt to CO2 and ash, there are processes that use energy that turn CO2 into valuable chemical feedstock.

Re:Plastic experts say recycling is a scam. Should we even d... by cfr2023 on Monday February 26, 2024 @08:22AM (#39510970)
Much to consider here, thanks for the thoughtful reply.
Re:Plastic experts say recycling is a scam. Should we even d... by amluto on Saturday February 24, 2024 @12:14PM (#39493203)
As a challenge: try to separate waxed cardboard food containers from polyethylene-coated cardboard food containers. They look almost identical. They feel quite similar. Nonetheless, the former is compostable, whereas the latter is not and also contains non-recyclable plastic. (Good luck getting the polyethylene off the cardboard. Maybe you could derive new polymer feedstock from the whole mess, but this seems no easier than turning compostable waste into plastic in general.)
Re:Plastic experts say recycling is a scam. Should we even d... by LMSolar on Friday March 01, 2024 @05:49PM (#39567753)
I've toured our local MRF and was shocked at how good it was at robotic / magnetic separation. Incredibly fast AI trained 'pickers' pulling material off a belt (sorting by visually distinct plastic types, e.g. PET vs opaque plastics, paper, etc), combined with some human labor and magnetic extractors. Very high capture rates for all plastics except films - those remain hard to sort / grab. I was not expecting this level of performance...