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Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by trinsic2 on Thursday February 22, 2024 @12:19PM (#39470141)
I understand the Divide and Conquer part, but I am not understanding what the disempowerment is about. Can someone give me their interpretation of what AI-Driven Disempowerment means?
Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by esafak on Thursday February 22, 2024 @12:25PM (#39470218)
It's the second sentence of the abstract:

"Current AI models are already automating away the livelihoods of some artists, actors, and writers."

OpenAI's charter says:

"OpenAI’s mission is to ensure that artificial general intelligence (AGI)—by which we mean highly autonomous systems that outperform humans at most economically valuable work—benefits all of humanity."

https://openai.com/charter

So they are going to develop software that can outperform humans, for less money... Of course people are going to lose their jobs. That's your disempowerment. They're making good on that part. Now we're waiting for the second act where they're going to show us how it magically benefits all of humanity, including the newly unemployed horde.

Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by ActionHank on Thursday February 22, 2024 @12:33PM (#39470314)
A vital part is implied, but not stated - these companies own the novel solutions to training and running the models and they likely own or will own the hardware it runs on.

Without these things the rest of the world, even large corporations, will not be able to compete.

Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by codethief on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:22PM (#39471001)
I think this is a great point. If AI becomes much better at certain tasks than humans, this will devalue human labor and cause a power shift towards AI companies which will act as gate keepers. I mean, let's face it, AI is not going to get democratized (at least not the state-of-the-art stuff – that one will always be under tight control). And even if models and hardware schematics were public, the average Joe would still not know what to do with that.
Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by Legend2440 on Thursday February 22, 2024 @12:43PM (#39470462)
People made this argument every time a new thing gets automated, and so far they've been completely wrong.

Job loss is temporary, the gains from cheaper/better/faster production are permanent.

Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by mitthrowaway2 on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:08PM (#39470827)
We've had machines that outperform humans at some tasks, which has always shifted value onto other tasks that human workers could do which machines could not. We've never had a machine that could "outperform humans at most economically valuable work". At some point, there is a finite limit to human capabilities, and it has never in history been reached, so there is no historical example to draw on.

We do have a historical examples for horses, though, which was reached somewhere between around 1900 and 1920.

Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by Legend2440 on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:42PM (#39472017)
People aren't horses. Horses were just a tool, and we found a better one. The economy exists to serve us, not us the economy.
Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by mitthrowaway2 on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:54PM (#39472188)
Horses are animals, not tools, but they found an economic role through their labor. Hopefully humans fare better, but as far as the economy is concerned, the difference between horses and people is that horses don't have money to spend; their owners did, and once tractors became available they no longer saw fit to spend that money on horses. The economic role of unemployable humans would depend on how much purchasing power they have access to through means beyond their labor. Economic theory makes no guarantees about that.
Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by incrudible on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:16PM (#39470931)
Farming used to be most economically valuable work until it was not. OpenAI is not even close to producing anything as valuable as farming equipment.

If we need jobs, we will create them, do not worry about that, see David Graebers work on the topic.

Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by bildung on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:13PM (#39470889)
That's true, but society has to have a discourse about who owns these gains, and what to do with the negatively affected people.

A scenario where people in creative jobs are essentially dispossessed with tax-avoiding megacorporations being the only profiteers is not the only possible option.

We as society could also decide that e.g. there have to be free occupational retraining options for those affected (as happened in other instances of technological revolutions), and AI models, or their underlying data, have to be open source of some new kind and so on.

Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by swatcoder on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:13PM (#39470885)
Prior to industrialization, there wasn't much affordance in commumities for fully idle people. Give or take toddlers and people troubled by striking physical or mental disabilities, everybody had social duties (i.e. work) and played some role contributing to their community. Even most aristocrats and nobles that lived on the backs of othes's labor had community obligations of some kind.

Now, though, we aim society towards 5% of people who want to work not having some opportunity to do so, while doing some paperwork magic to exlude an order of magnitude of other non-workers from that measure. Meanwhile, we recognize widespread depression and anxiety that makes sense in a society where most people have no clear, constructive community obligations to give them direction and we struggle to reconcile liberal ideas of universal life, liberty, and happiness with the intuitive collectivist expectation that everybody should be chipping in (even when they have no opportunity to do so).

One can argue it's all been worth it, or that it's surely the road to some future utopia, but "completely wrong" is maybe not the right word choice for the opposing view.

Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by esafak on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:13PM (#39470893)
We eliminated loom workers and switchboard operators. Nobody cried for them because their jobs were not considered desirable. Do you think art is comparable to that? This is not back-breaking work that people long to be liberated from. I don't care if they can find jobs doing something else. And why are they not being compensated by the AI companies for the golden eggs they have laid? What are tomorrow's models going to be trained on?
Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by Legend2440 on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:26PM (#39471788)
People did cry for them. The loom workers started an actual armed rebellion. Thankfully, the army put it down or else we'd still be weaving our clothes by hand.

Consumers decide whether something is too "special" to automate. If you want hand-drawn art, you're welcome to pay extra for it - just like you can get handmade pottery or clothing today.

Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by lelanthran on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:20PM (#39470980)
> People made this argument every time a new thing gets automated, and so far they've been completely wrong.

People make the argument every day that I will die one day. They've been completely wrong so far, this proving that the argument is wrong.

Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by icandoit on Thursday February 22, 2024 @01:23PM (#39471016)
I prefer my car to having a horse. But the car did eliminate the horse.

There is a speed at which people can train for new jobs X, and a speed at which new jobs displace old jobs Y. If Y is twice X then your talent pool is half what it could be.

If Y shrinks to only days and X plateaus then the human body becomes just robotic hands that the computer tells what to do. Unthinking meat, incapable of making a decision, never aware of the implications of the decisions that are made on its behalf.

The ratio of the population chanting "Butlerian Jihad now" is currently small. How can I capitalize on a belief that this number grows fast?

Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by spywaregorilla on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:20PM (#39471725)
There is not so much net job loss. There is significant job downgrade.
Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by Legend2440 on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:33PM (#39471887)
Nope. Everyone has upgraded. Even America's poor are richer than people pre-automation.

Automation has made it possible for cars, cellphones, manufactured goods, air conditioning, running water, etc to be available to everyone.

Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by spywaregorilla on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:05PM (#39473241)
I don't think it's clear at all that it's better to be a minimum wage button pusher working multiple jobs for a modern lower class life style than it was to be a subsistence farmer. Not to say that either is enviable. But modern comforts are also creating modern horrors.
Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by nonrandomstring on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:03PM (#39473204)
This is the sort of comment cliched and dishonest. It only muddies the waters of a serious debate.

> Automation has made it possible for;

> cars

We are choking to death on fumes and micro-plastics. CO2 is destroying the planet. The roads are grid-locked. We should be walking more.

> cellphones

We're in a massive global mental health crisis as attention spans plummet and depression soars. Cellphones have ruined family life and turned work in to a 24/7 activity.

> manufactured goods

Our overflowing landfills are spewing methane into the atmosphere from 7 decades of pointless plastic rubbish we make and throw away two weeks later. Nothing we can make lasts.

> air conditioning

Open the window.

> running water

Just No! The Byzantines and Romans had running water. Automation has nothing to do with it.

> Everyone has upgraded.

We work longer hours for less of a stake in society than at any time in history.

You know - I love technology, We really could have done something with it. But we let convenience, greed and vanity be our guides. Just maybe a good start would be to quit with this hopeless mythology and hubris, to actually think critically about the tradeoffs we've made and see just how much harm we're doing to ourselves.

Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by spywaregorilla on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:07PM (#39473254)
It's kind of astounding to call someone dishonest and then equate air conditioning to opening a window.
Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by nonrandomstring on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:22PM (#39473438)
Well it took the World Health Organisation, a few hundred medical doctors and PhDs two years to come to the same conclusion. Maybe, I dunno... science?
Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by spywaregorilla on Thursday February 22, 2024 @04:27PM (#39473504)
What the hell are you talking about? Is this some sort of covid ventilation confusion? The primary function of ac is not ventilation.
Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by squishington on Friday February 23, 2024 @04:15AM (#39478557)
I feel like a better comparison would be AC vs good quality house design, where we aren't so reliant on AC. AC would still be necessary for some people in some climates, but I know my rental in Australia isn't designed to withstand heat at all, compared to a rental I had in Germany. It's putting an expensive bandaid on something that ought to be fixed in the design stage.

Edit: For context I'm referring to "cheaper/better/faster production" having a negative impact of the quality of housing, which disproportionately impacts renters, who don't have the ability to improve their rented dwelling. Regulation is the only thing that will improve the housing situation for those born too late to buy in the current market.

Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by nonrandomstring on Thursday February 22, 2024 @12:54PM (#39470648)
Please tell me you don't lack the imagination to interpret that for yourself?

How succinctly can it be said;

It means shutting the fuck up and doing exactly what you're told to do by a machine. No arguments. The machine is right by definition, and has calculated precisely what is "for your own good" using scientific data.

And don't bother arguing. You're only making it worse for yourself. :)

EDIT: Here's a wonderful passage by Alexis De Tocqueville, from "Democracy in America"

        That power is absolute, minute, regular, provident, and
        mild. It would be like the authority of a parent if, like that
        authority, its object was to prepare men for manhood; but it
        seeks, on the contrary, to keep them in perpetual childhood:
        it is well content that the people should rejoice, provided
        they think of nothing but rejoicing. For their happiness such
        a government willingly labors, but it chooses to be the sole
        agent and the only arbiter of that happiness; it provides for
        their security, foresees and supplies their necessities,
        facilitates their pleasures, manages their principal concerns,
        directs their industry, regulates the descent of property, and
        subdivides their inheritances: what remains, but to spare them
        all the care of thinking and all the trouble of living?

AI will be wonderful, So long as you have nothing to say, think or feel. AI will provide everything you want. A universe of material goods at almost no cost, It will feed, clothe and shelter you. It will answer to every question, demand and wish; entertainment, pornography, music... all beyond your the wildest imaginations. But there s one thing it will NOT allow you to do. One request it will NEVER grant... and that is to turn it off.
Re:Divide-and-Conquer Dynamics in AI-Driven Disempowerment by kys_now on Thursday February 22, 2024 @02:47PM (#39472085)
No wonder the autists here are so enamored with it.