Cool. Ansible is still going to be around for some time.

Also reminds me again that yaml should have never been born. Look how unnatural this "language" is in this article's examples

Yeah. I don’t understand why we keep submitting ourselves to this way of working.

Most of that is the embedded templating/scripting system (the stuff between {{}}), not YAML itself.

Well, that's Jinja. And arguably not a bad tool, but not the best for the use-case of config-management.

Yeah, I just have this sentiment wishing that Ansible's author used own-crafted format. HashiCorp used their own and suddenly in this case no one says "yaml should be everywhere because it's everywhere already".

In a similar mood, I wished Kubernetes was staying every from yaml. Even mentioned HCL would be better (although it's not perfect)

Yes but the task names and parameters try to mimic natural language, like assert: that:, so you're supposed to read it as a whole, and it quickly turns into an abomination, with one syntax (yaml) for the structure and another (jinja) for values and conditions

IMHO, the issue is that Ansible uses YAML to do "programming language" sorts of things, which is why it feels so unnatural.

I tried an experiment last year: What if Ansible had Python rather than YAML syntax. https://github.com/linsomniac/uplaybook?tab=readme-ov-file#s...

The downside is that having full Python available makes it really easy to make your playbooks non-idempotent, which Ansible gate-keeps behind Ansible modules. Also someone raised a concern that full Python (rather than a more limited safe dialect like Starlark) would make it harder to trust third-party playbooks. But considering uPlaybook's use case (ansible-like system configuration) it feels like even with a restricted dialect it is going to have plenty of opportunity for nefarious purposes.

I've put out uPlaybook for some limited review among my friends, and I've gotten some excitement about it. It doesn't have fleet management and remote running though, which is the big negative feedback I've gotten. I'm interested in thoughts on it though.

Why would you use this instead of e.g.

    {{ "--quiet" if ansible_verbosity == 0 }}

https://jinja.palletsprojects.com/en/3.1.x/templates/#if-exp...

Probably because the author of this piece of code was not aware of it. :)

Thanks, I updated the blog-post.

I was wondering the same thing. I tested it and it works fine. It defaults to an empty string if there is no "else".

I'm genuinely surprised you can use if-else expressions in Jinja. Jinja uses such neutered expressions I would have looked for an equivalent ternary/iff filter.

They support for-if from python, too: https://jinja.palletsprojects.com/en/3.1.x/templates/#loop-f... but I haven't tried the "recursive" keyword to know if ansible supports that. I say "ansible supports that" because they don't just drop jinja2 into ansible and call it a draw, they have a bunch of custom execution integrations: https://github.com/ansible/ansible/blob/v2.16.3/lib/ansible/...

I really wish Ansible would have chosen to use python instead of YAML (since that's what it ends up being anyways). Shoehorning actual programming logic into YAML files is just awful; Working with Ansible as a software engineer is without a doubt the worst work I've done in my professional career. Every otherwise simple logic structure in any programming language like loops, variable declaration, or conditional statements take 5x as much space and are very difficult to understand immediately.

My first love in this space was Chef, and honestly it remains my favorite in config management because you can write things in it that look very non-programmy, but you're still just writing in pure ruby. Obviously Ansible has the advantage being agentless, but I just cannot stand how popular it is.

As a counter anecdote I can tell you that all of the ops-people I worked with, they gladly switched from Puppet and Chef to Ansible, specifically because it was less programming and more shell-like.

Not that this is good or bad, but I think that's why Ansible took off with the traditional operations-teams.

More shell like, and more normative. There's a given form & shape in Ansible; playbooks resemble each other.

You don't get that with programming languages. People do all kinds of shit with programming languages. There's tons of good ways to tackle a problem. And exponentially many more bad ways to tackle a problem.

Having a given repeated form makes interpreting & understanding Ansible far easier than the alternatives.

When I was first using chef -- and didn't quite get the paradigm -- it was really easy to fallback to a lot of native ruby. i.e. "I dont want to run these resources in certain contexts, let me just wrap them in an if statement." Which ended up creating a bit of a mess over time, and broke some of chef's functionality.

By using yaml ansible basically forces you to be purely declarative, which I found to be a boon, especially once other engineers who similarly didn't initially get the declarative paradigm started on working in the codebase.

Ansible is a nice tradeoff to allow sysadmins with no programming experience to work with it, and someday hopefully graduate to something else. For that, I think it's a net-positive.

But yes, trying to work with even mildly complex data structures in Ansible is a nightmare compared to raw Python.

I think this is more a personal preference rather than something practical. As a counter-example, I've implemented Ansible-like syntax as a configuration for a couple of unrelated projects, and people like it because it is similar to Ansible, which is used for infrastructure management. I doubt I'd do that by writing a parser for Python-like configuration language.

Also, don't forget that yaml is way easier to pick up by non-python developers and people unfamiliar with programming.

I see you haven't worked with Istio, yet.

Kidding aside, it is somewhat amusing to see the same discussion as when chef happened repeat itself.

Ansible clearly had to take a lot of liberties with the yaml format to make it work in practice. The amount of yaml in yaml you have to write is surprising. I cannot wait for the cycle to repeat itself.

> Ansible clearly had to take a lot of liberties with the yaml format to make it work in practice

and yet, completely facepalmed by invoking Jinja2 with its default begin and end characters that are meaningful to yaml, thus ensuring billions of person-years of SO questions due to having to quote, sometimes multiple ways, every jinja2 invocation

Contrast that to GitHub Actions which uses ${{ }} for its parameterization and thus no quoting required, in contrast to

  - debug:
      msg: '{{ "what kind of lack of forethought was this nonsense" }}'

Haven't used it in anger yet, but I have high hopes for PyInfra: https://github.com/pyinfra-dev/pyinfra

If you try to use a hammer like a screwdriver, you’re going to be frustrated.

Ansible is great as long as you keep Jinja use to a minimum. Basic variable substitution handles 90% of what you need. Ternary filter... doesn't qualify.

Everything else should just be handled by a python script to orchestrate the playbooks.

Never thought I'd see a blog post describing an if statement.

You're welcome. :)

I use it to conditionally add elements to array or dict in group_vars, real life example:

aws_tags_pio: RoleImage: "pio"

aws_tags_role_app_tpl: [ { Role: "app" }, "{{ (mageops_pio_worker_enable and not mageops_pio_worker_dedicated_asg) | ternary(aws_tags_pio, {}) }}" ]

aws_tags_role_app: "{{ aws_tags_role_app_tpl | combine }}"

https://github.com/mageops/ansible-infrastructure/blob/5dcc3...

for array you use flatten eg

aws_security_group_persistant_rules_tpl: [ "{{ mageops_ssh_proxy_persistant | ternary(aws_security_group_persistant_rules_ssh_proxy, []) }}", "{{ mageops_tinyproxy_persistant_enabled | ternary(aws_security_group_persistent_rules_tinyproxy, []) }}" ]

aws_security_group_persistant_rules: "{{ aws_security_group_persistant_rules_tpl | flatten }}"

this pattern really helped to clean up conditionals that normally had to be done in tasks