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Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by bootsmann on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:29AM (#39428068)
I don't think disrupting a foreign states propaganda operation falls under censorship.
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by blitzar on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:37AM (#39428155)
I would rather not be a hypocrite - we call it "censorship" when other countries block us from broadcasting our propaganda into their countries.

It's not different this time or when we do it or any of the usual contortions attempted to maintain a barely passable facade of intellectual honesty.

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by bootsmann on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:51AM (#39428299)
Can you actually point to any examples of those "western state-funded propaganda operations" that are being blocked?

You claim there is an equivalence, so why don't you put up some examples of these purportedly equivalent things.

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by blitzar on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:58AM (#39428373)
China bans BBC World News from broadcasting - 12 February 2021

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-56030340

British Foreign Secretary Dominic Raab called the move an "unacceptable curtailing of media freedom".

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by boomboomsubban on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:59AM (#39428379)
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by bootsmann on Monday February 19, 2024 @06:04AM (#39428422)
Fair example
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by perihelions on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:35AM (#39428125)
Hard disagree. I think it's the most essential freedom of speech there is: to be allowed to read and speak wrong, dangerous ideas.
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by RandomLensman on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:36AM (#39428141)
Did the USSR have TV channels in the West during the cold war?
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by perihelions on Monday February 19, 2024 @06:39AM (#39428695)
To answer the spirit of the question: as an American, you could freely subscribe to Soviet newspapers, printed in the USSR, which the US Post Office would deliver right to your doorstep (via international mail). That has been the case since 1965, when the Supreme Court settled the question in Lamont v. Postmaster General.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamont_v._Postmaster_General

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by RandomLensman on Monday February 19, 2024 @06:45AM (#39428755)
You could also watch some Soviet movies, but I'd say that is very different to access form large scall media outlets (radio, TV) that don't rely on subscription etc.
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by blitzar on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:42AM (#39428198)
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by RandomLensman on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:44AM (#39428225)
Of course. Or in the US during WWII, etc. Censorship is part of conflicts and confrontations.

Maybe better to say there are two different forms of censorship: 1) the government doesn't like something, 2) society reduces it attack surface

The two can coincide or not.

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by m000 on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:48AM (#39428268)
That's a really low bar we're setting for our "liberal" "democracies".
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by RandomLensman on Monday February 19, 2024 @06:02AM (#39428405)
Its height notwithstanding, it's a bar that worked before for liberal democracies.
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by m000 on Monday February 19, 2024 @06:10AM (#39428464)
Coming up next: "The police may beat us up bad because we marched at a protest, but at least we're not thrown to the dogs as Kim's uncle."
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by RandomLensman on Monday February 19, 2024 @06:22AM (#39428562)
So how would you have fought the propaganda/psy-ops side of the cold war? Why do you think your approach would have worked as well or better?
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by m000 on Monday February 19, 2024 @01:45PM (#39433197)
How about informing/educating people by promoting instead of undermining real journalism? I aspire to be able to tell apart A from B for myself, and not being told what is what from a nanny state and controlled media.

Can't the "free" and purportedly superior western media debunk whatever BS rt.com peddles?

But then they would probably be inclined to also call-out the psy-ops and other shenaningans staged by our govenments and targeting us. Ooops!

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by RandomLensman on Monday February 19, 2024 @02:56PM (#39433984)
In most cases, you have no way of telling A and B apart unless you are directly involved or an expert.

Debunking has limited effectiveness even in factual situations, beyond factual, not even sure what that would mean.

There is, of course, also a numbers game, flipping the side of a few people is quite sufficient for a some things, so even being really good at countering adversarial propaganda will leave a lot of gaps. Reducing an attack surface might not always be a bad idea.

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by bootsmann on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:42AM (#39428195)
This isn't about "reading/speaking wrong or dangerous ideas". You can stand infront of one of the EU parl today and read whatever manifesto of ideas you think true, in fact some people do, hell you can even do that inside the parliament, in fact some people do.

What you cannot be is a foreign state at war with an ally and freely distribute state propaganda aimed at furthering your war goals. This isn't a hard line to draw.

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by eastbound on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:54AM (#39428324)
> You can stand infront of one of the EU parl today and read whatever manifesto

And you can do that because it has literally no impact. This vision of free speech was a moment of genius from our institutions.

However, you can’t talk about the crimes of occupants in France in, say, a newspaper, or any broadcast channel, or anything that has an audience. Governments have literally made it a speechcrime to discover the authors who are killing our children at 23x the pace of the others.

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by sofixa on Monday February 19, 2024 @06:09AM (#39428451)
> However, you can’t talk about the crimes of occupants in France in, say, a newspaper, or any broadcast channel, or anything that has an audience

If I'm reading your racist dogwhistles correctly, "occupants of France" would be muslims or brown/black people? Don't you worry, plenty of shit-tier "news" in France make it their life goal to cover every single crime committed by someone who cannot trace their lineage to 15th century France. (cf. Valeurs Actuelles) Hell, there are multiple political parties founded around those ideas, that don't forget to chime in any time anything happens.

> Governments have literally made it a speechcrime to discover the authors who are killing our children at 23x the pace of the others.

Who are those killing our children at 23x the pace, and what is the speech crime? Sources, please.

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by eastbound on Saturday February 24, 2024 @04:34PM (#39495328)
You’re asking for sources, of course, because your horrible side has also made sure to forbid building them.

So I dare you make the study on how much crimes the occupying forces are doing in France.

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by perihelions on Monday February 19, 2024 @06:00AM (#39428392)
- "What you cannot be is a foreign state..."

But you missed the point: the illiberalism isn't the restriction on the foreign government's actions, but the restriction placed on your own citizens—the restriction that they are not allowed to read certain things: that certain books, prints, newspapers, are illegal for their eyes. That's anathema to open society.

This isn't about "foreign governments' rights"; it's about peoples' rights.

"To suppress free speech is a double wrong. It violates the rights of the hearer as well as those of the speaker."

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by bootsmann on Monday February 19, 2024 @06:12AM (#39428483)
I can look at Russian propaganda today and I will not be tried or sent to jail. I can spread Russian propaganda today and I will not be tried or sent to jail.

Again, the ban of RT isn't because they spread certain ideas that were considered wrong by the EU censors. The ban is because they are owned by an adversary state that currently invading an ally on the EU border.

> That's anathema to open society.

You should maybe read up what the inventor of the very term of the open society had to say about the limits of openness in an open society.

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by makeitdouble on Monday February 19, 2024 @09:23AM (#39430016)
What do you do when the idea are not just "dangerous" but actively causing harm ?

Right now the US has the tools to deal with that, if they need a domain down they can do it under their sovereign power. The EU doesn't.

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by perihelions on Monday February 19, 2024 @01:04PM (#39432748)
The US government is constitutionally prohibited from taking down web domains which contain "ideas... actively causing harm".

You're conflating multiple issues into one. The US has jurisdiction to seize domains being used in furtherance of crimes; sure. But ideas aren't crimes in the US. The US isn't able, legally or practically, to use this power to censor opinion or information on the basis of its content: the US courts do not permit it.

~

Your other question ("What do you do...?") is much more interesting to me, but it's too big for me to be able to give it a respectful treatment. This is my shortest answer: we entrust democracy to decide whether to start a war or to a end a war*; whether to build nuclear weapons or abolish them. It's implicit in our method of government that we trust the civic deliberation process with our lives. The fact that our collective deliberation can make mistakes, and kill a million people with its "whoopsies!", is part and parcel of what it means to function as a republic. (To lay the responsibilities elsewhere is to have a different method of government). Most political ideas are capable of causing immense harm in a democracy (except unimportant, frivolous ones)—there aren't many important, but safe, ideas.

*(I think it's remarkable that much of the First Amendment jurisprudence involves censoring opinions about wars, in one direction or another: an acknowledgement that "ideas capable of killing millions" is at the heart of this civic question).

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by makeitdouble on Monday February 19, 2024 @06:16PM (#39436005)
> But ideas aren't crimes in the US

That's a distinction without a difference. Whether "macrosoft.com" is considered an idea or brand impersonation is in the eye of the beholder .

And of course something not being allowed doesn't mean it doesn't happen in plain sight without repercutions. On the practicality of it, getting a take down court order for brand or copyright violation seems straightforward, and civil forfeiture can apply to domains [0] as well, so vaguely sticking a potential associated crime to a domain owner is enough for an agency to take down a domain, whatever it is.

I think that's totally US's choice to have these laws and apply them their way. I also sympathize with the rest of the world planning to get out of that influence and their own tradeoffs.

> It's implicit in our method of government that we trust the civic deliberation process with our lives.

I feel you're looking at from the political lens only. A lot of "ideas" are not political and asking for civil debate everytime one of these gets a wide audience would be an issue.

A suicide inducing site could be such. And it doesn't need to be intentional nor straight illegal. If looking at it hundreds of kids took out their lives every single day, you'd shut it down and start asking questions later.

[0] https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/ice-domain-name-...

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by 4bpp on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:33AM (#39428100)
What do you think does fall under censorship?
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by hosteur on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:34AM (#39428109)
What? This is exactly what censorship is. Censorship is censorship even if it aligns with your opinion.
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by bootsmann on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:47AM (#39428254)
Blocking RT has little to do with the opinions spread by it (though highly correlated for a variety of reasons), other people in Europe are allowed to say and spread the same ideas without any repercussions. It is about fighting the intelligence operations by a country that is quite literally invading a bordering allied state. RT isn't being blocked because it spread ideas that are contained in some EU law to be illegal and dangerous opinions, they are being blocked because they are owned by the Russian state.
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by m000 on Monday February 19, 2024 @05:51AM (#39428296)
Meanwhile, we've been hugging with some other illegal occupiers for decades. They're even allowed to openly run lobbying groups.
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by 0x000042 on Monday February 19, 2024 @06:01AM (#39428403)
Censorship:

/'sɛnsər,ʃɪp/

noun

counterintelligence achieved by banning or deleting any information of value to the enemy

Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by bootsmann on Monday February 19, 2024 @06:16AM (#39428516)
If we're going to argue about the semantics here then so be it. Even within your definition this is not censorship. I can copy/paste an article from the RT frontpage onto a personal blog of mine and neither me nor my blog will face any legal repercussions. It's not the information that is being banned, it's the state actor spreading it.
Re:The EU Wants Its Own DNS Resolver That Can Block 'Unlawfu... by hosteur on Monday February 19, 2024 @06:46AM (#39428761)
You cannot access the rt front page without circumventing the censorship. You may be tech savvy and able to circumvent it. But most people are not. Which is key. It is literally censored.