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Re:I worry our Copilot is leaving some passengers behind by BerislavLopac on Saturday February 17, 2024 @02:56PM (#39412889)
> 80% of your code is written in 20% of your time but 80% of your time is is required for 20% of your code

This is not correct. It is well known that the first 90% of the code takes the first 90% of the time, and the remaining 10% of the code takes the other 90% of the time. [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninety%E2%80%93ninety_rule

Re:I worry our Copilot is leaving some passengers behind by Jensson on Saturday February 17, 2024 @04:39PM (#39413795)
I always wondered if that meant the first 90% takes 50% of the time or 10% of the time.

You could see it as the last 10% taking 90% which is the same as the first and total work was actually 180%, so the first took 50% of total.

Or you can see it as the last taking 90% of the time for real, so the first 90% took 10%.

It is a factor 5 difference between the two interpretations, so it really matters a ton.

Re:I worry our Copilot is leaving some passengers behind by e1g on Saturday February 17, 2024 @07:56PM (#39415044)
When you think you're almost done, you're halfway there. However long you expect X to take, you should double that.

Hofstadter's Law: it always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law.

Re:I worry our Copilot is leaving some passengers behind by hananova on Sunday February 18, 2024 @01:39AM (#39416777)
Hofstadter's Law implies that every task takes an infinite amount of time.
Re:I worry our Copilot is leaving some passengers behind by bayindirh on Sunday February 18, 2024 @04:04AM (#39417448)
Software is a kind of art. It's never finished, but abandoned. You can continue to polish the code without adding functions (or even fixing bugs), so yes, it can take forever.

OTOH, when you give that ~180%, you reach to a maturity level most of your users perceive as "done", so what's most developers are after is that point.

Then, there are passion projects, which go on for 30+ years (Vim, BBEdit, etc.), where people work on it because they love the project and they're able to.

*: BBEdit is closed source/commercial software, but it sells because it's well crafted. It's not crafted to sell well.

Re:I worry our Copilot is leaving some passengers behind by m3047 on Sunday February 18, 2024 @10:57AM (#39420078)
It makes a lot more sense when you understand two things:

1) Untrained software engineers' unconscious inclination is to estimate the amount of time after which it's probably time to reassess, rather than complete.

2) The distribution of actual completion is not a normal distribution with respect to estimates of completion, it is log normal: there's a really really long tail.

Re:I worry our Copilot is leaving some passengers behind by BerislavLopac on Monday February 19, 2024 @10:26AM (#39430766)
> I always wondered if that meant the first 90% takes 50% of the time or 10% of the time.

Essentially the latter; what you thought will be 90% the time ends up being just the first 10%. And the rest is spent on the 10% of the code, plus everything else that is part of the project besides the code: reviews, testing, revisions, deployment issues etc.

Re:I worry our Copilot is leaving some passengers behind by godelski on Saturday February 17, 2024 @03:18PM (#39413125)
Good catch, I fell victim to one of the classic 4 problems in CS: off by integer overflow, segfault. I'm sorry I can't complete this task, I'm a model trained by OpenAI and my knowledge cutoff date is Sept 2021.
Re:I worry our Copilot is leaving some passengers behind by seabass-labrax on Saturday February 17, 2024 @03:31PM (#39413269)
This is a bit suspect... you're not patronizing enough to have been trained by OpenAI!
Re:I worry our Copilot is leaving some passengers behind by bayindirh on Saturday February 17, 2024 @04:31PM (#39413732)
This is one of the golden rules of the software development, yet many people still thinks this one-liner meant to be for fun only.
Re:I worry our Copilot is leaving some passengers behind by godelski on Saturday February 17, 2024 @05:26PM (#39414119)
I think a better definition of a clique ends up being "something everyone can recite but don't know." I think it tells us something about intelligence too, because you can know things but that doesn't mean the information is actually useful.
Re:I worry our Copilot is leaving some passengers behind by iefbr14 on Saturday February 17, 2024 @05:43PM (#39414242)
In practice they both turn out to take 90%
Re:I worry our Copilot is leaving some passengers behind by bayindirh on Sunday February 18, 2024 @04:00AM (#39417419)
But the total is 180%. This is why developers multiply their estimates by 2, by default.