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Re:Big Pharma spends billions more on executives and stockho... by s1artibartfast on Saturday February 17, 2024 @12:16AM (#39406630)
I feel like it is very easy to claim a top down command economy would be more efficient. On paper it makes sense. You have no stakeholder profit and no marketing budget. You just tell scientists what to make and doctors just prescribe whatever comes out the other end.

However, it is hard to find real examples that bear this out. I think that this View overestimates the capability of institutions and underestimates the utility of price signals and an open market with competition.

Re:Big Pharma spends billions more on executives and stockho... by Hammershaft on Saturday February 17, 2024 @01:09AM (#39406883)
We could take a portion of those r&d incentives and directly test and compare the cost & output of government pharma research vs private research in a mixed model.
Re:Big Pharma spends billions more on executives and stockho... by s1artibartfast on Saturday February 17, 2024 @11:01AM (#39410626)
It seems the prinicpal "R&D incentive" that the parent poster considered was IP/patent law. Im not sure how that baby could be split in an A/B test.

Pharma companies receive very little (relatively) in terms of grants or research funding.

R&D spending can be amortized as a business expense when calculating a tax bill, so I suppose that could be repealed, raising the effective tax rate.

Re:Big Pharma spends billions more on executives and stockho... by sudosysgen on Saturday February 17, 2024 @03:33PM (#39413288)
Pharma companies receive easy and extremely subsidized access to research that costs almost a hundred billion every year. They don't need to be the direct recipients of the grant to be the direct benefactors.
Re:Big Pharma spends billions more on executives and stockho... by sudosysgen on Saturday February 17, 2024 @01:26AM (#39406947)
A lot of pharmaceuticals do however end up coming from what's essentially a non-profit system. It doesn't need to be a pure command economy.

The price signals are already broken. The people doing the research that is fundamental to pharmaceuticals are paid by grants which aren't connected to the price signals. There is a market failure here.

Re:Big Pharma spends billions more on executives and stockho... by s1artibartfast on Saturday February 17, 2024 @11:01AM (#39410624)
Fundamental research, like what a grant would pay for, is a fairly tiny part of what pharma companies do. The vast majority is the development. Modern drugs take ~$1.5 billion dollars to bring to market. In my experience, 99% of that cost comes after what looks like academic research.
Re:Big Pharma spends billions more on executives and stockho... by sudosysgen on Saturday February 17, 2024 @01:28PM (#39411983)
The fact that it's a tiny part of what pharma companies do is why there is a disconnect. There is something like 70 billion in grants alone (so not even including salaries and stipends a lot of the time) going towards biomedical fundamental research, and it's disconnected from the price signals because pharma companies will never be the ones doing it. It's still a necessary part of the process.

So for the market it looks like 99% of the cost comes after academic research but in reality that's only 40-60% of it.

At the end of the day the price signal doesn't even reach most of the ressources and it is itself a poor proxy for the metric we actually want to optimize, which would be something like QALY.

Re:Big Pharma spends billions more on executives and stockho... by throwawayqqq11 on Saturday February 17, 2024 @01:38AM (#39406995)
Price signals are just that, signals and there are others for sure, like regulation.

You dont have to imagine a top down economy and fail to find examples, when simply regulation would do the trick and keep some enterprise freedom.

Re:Big Pharma spends billions more on executives and stockho... by 6510 on Saturday February 17, 2024 @02:04AM (#39407109)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trappist_beer

> The beer must be brewed within the walls of a Trappist monastery, either by the monks themselves or under their supervision.

> The brewery must be of secondary importance within the monastery and it should witness to the business practices proper to a monastic way of life.

> The brewery is not intended to be a profit-making venture. The income covers the living expenses of the monks and the maintenance of the buildings and grounds. Whatever remains is donated to charity for social work and to help persons in need.

It's funny to see above the suits and ties a layer of habits and scapulars[1]

https://www.koningshoeven.nl/media/127/compilatie-inkleding....

Re:Big Pharma spends billions more on executives and stockho... by tfourb on Saturday February 17, 2024 @02:06AM (#39407123)
Health systems in other (comparable) countries, where drug prices are centrally negotiated or outright set by government committees are vastly more efficient in terms of cost and generally produce better results in terms of health outcomes.

I.e. in my native Germany, health expenditure per capita is 2/3 of what it is in the U.S. if faced with a life-threatening illness, I would vastly prefer to be in Germany than in the U.S. (with the possible exception of being super-rich and being able to buy top-of-the-line health care).

Re:Big Pharma spends billions more on executives and stockho... by snowpid on Saturday February 17, 2024 @04:11AM (#39407784)
This is still not a centralised system. There are still prices. Just the negjator is the public health system.
Re:Big Pharma spends billions more on executives and stockho... by sofixa on Saturday February 17, 2024 @09:36AM (#39409764)
"This is not centralised, there's just one single central entity that negotiates"
Re:Big Pharma spends billions more on executives and stockho... by tfourb on Saturday February 17, 2024 @11:40AM (#39411022)
that's not really a contradiction to what I wrote above. The point of having one central negotiator is that this negotiator has a lot more leverage, because they control the demand of an entire market. If I tell a drug company, that they can sell me drug A for $X per dose or not sell any of drug A at all, you can except a lot more pressure on prices compared to negotiating only for one insurance plan among dozens.
Re:Big Pharma spends billions more on executives and stockho... by nitwit005 on Saturday February 17, 2024 @10:29PM (#39415912)
Even the USSR had prices, and used them in it's planning.
Re:Big Pharma spends billions more on executives and stockho... by graemep on Saturday February 17, 2024 @06:08AM (#39408405)
In very few cases are you talking about a system as inefficient as funding R & D.

It is not really an open market with competition: the government creates incentives, and only a faction of the increased cost to buyers goes into what the incentives are supposed to support.

Any useful information from price signals is lost too amid bad incentives: https://pietersz.co.uk/2007/01/pharmaceutical-incentives-dev...