News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by dangus on Sunday February 11, 2024 @10:57AM (#39335846)
Not paying location-based salary is arguably more unfair.

If you pay the global median salary to everyone, people in high cost areas are screwed and you’ll never be able to recruit there.

If you pay everyone in your company the highest salary, people in low cost areas live like kings while their peers in high cost areas live a more modest lifestyle.

As a company you’re not out to solve global inequity, you’re out to hire good talent effectively and efficiently. Like leaving a 40% tip at a restaurant, overpaying the going rate on salary doesn’t really get you anything but feel goods at a certain point.

Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by kmac_ on Sunday February 11, 2024 @11:17AM (#39336014)
Actually, a company's attitude toward this problem has to be balanced. I live in a country where most international companies pay less than the US and even the EU average. The effect is quite easy to predict: they are not attractive to senior candidates (i.e., Nokia) and suffer from higher employee attrition (not right now, as the job market is pretty dead). I don't want to mention the effect on employee morale. Is it discrimination, as the author says? When you do exactly the same job in the same company, same department, same team, with the same output — then definitely it's discrimination. Does it encourage various xenophobic behaviors coming from better-earning employees - very rarely, but yes. Is it legal? — Yes.
Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by FirmwareBurner on Sunday February 11, 2024 @01:49PM (#39337416)
>I live in a country where most international companies pay less than the US and even the EU average.

Can I ask which country?

Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by n_plus_1_acc on Sunday February 11, 2024 @02:35PM (#39337853)
Half of the EU?
Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by FirmwareBurner on Sunday February 11, 2024 @02:37PM (#39337865)
chuckles That's On Me, I Set the Bar Too Low.
Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by pas on Sunday February 11, 2024 @07:06PM (#39340116)
probably Poland
Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by dangus on Sunday February 11, 2024 @08:16PM (#39340457)
Balanced, sure, but not completely location blind.

Usually what I see is that remote jobs will offer a slight higher wage than the going rate in lower cost of living areas. That way you’re in a situation where moving to a higher cost of living area and making a more regionally average salary isn’t all that attractive.

> When you do exactly the same job in the same company, same department, same team, with the same output — then definitely it's discrimination.

But that’s my point as well: if you’re in San Francisco paying $5,000 a month in rent for an apartment and your coworker in Cambodia is also getting an SF salary living in a mansion with servants because your company is location blind that’s also a form of inequity.

Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by atomicnumber3 on Sunday February 11, 2024 @11:30AM (#39336098)
What about having a family? If you pay everyone the same, those living alone or with a partner will live like kings while those with children will live much more modestly. Oh wait, we get 2k in tax credits per kid. I forgot that one is all good.

My point is, people are going to have different lifestyles that cost different amounts and give them different benefits. Companies should fuck off pretending they care about fairness or cost of living. Just call it what it is - competition-based pay. You pay someone in SF more because you are forced to by market conditions, and if you could, you would pay them less, with zero concern for their rent or mortgage. And since you CAN pay someone in Kansas City much less, they do.

We've already seen the prevalence of remote work change the equation. Many places now pay SF 110% and everyone else in the US 100%. The COL difference between SF and KC is not that 10 percentage points. Nor could you compensate someone for the discomforts - both political and meteorological- of having to live in Missouri, who God himself has abandoned.

Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by rad_gruchalski on Sunday February 11, 2024 @11:38AM (#39336150)
> Oh wait, we get 2k in tax credits per kid

The guy who doesn’t have kids paid it indirectly in his social contributions. The next guy next to him too. And the next guy. And so on.

Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Sunday February 11, 2024 @11:57AM (#39336316)
I think their point was that 2k is a joke considering how expensive a child is
Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by rad_gruchalski on Sunday February 11, 2024 @01:00PM (#39336894)
Should it be more? Surely something one can think of when planning a child (or more)?
Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by Fire-Dragon-DoL on Sunday February 11, 2024 @01:25PM (#39337120)
I was just pointing out what the author of the statement wanted to say, wasn't really going to argue about the point.

It's incredibly hard to budget for children though, you can't really foresee how much they will cost. One child eats little, one eats much, one is picky, one not, one likes soccer, the other one likes lego. Very hard to predict, except maybe year 1-2. But then one might be good with breastfeeding while the other might require formula and the cost of the first one is 0 while the second one could be very high

Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by atomicnumber3 on Sunday February 11, 2024 @02:06PM (#39337560)
The other commenter is correct about my meaning, 2k/yr is rounding error for kid costs - at best it derays the increased cost of the "Family" health insurance plan.

And I'm not saying it should be more, I was more saying it in jest to help deter comments like "but you get tax kickbacks!". I do think that we should be doing more for children - free school lunches with no means testing, free childcare from birth instead of just when they enter the public school system, and so on - but the child tax credit is the most visible "kickback" so I made a joke about it to acknowledge it.

My point here, more generally, is that companies shouldn't be trying to play this game with "fairness". Just call it what it is - capitalism and the invisible hand of the free markets. If people have problems with how that system allocates capital, then do something about it, but don't try to pretend any of its machinations have any relation to notions of justice or fairness.

Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by FireBeyond on Sunday February 11, 2024 @02:53PM (#39338033)
Very true. I mean even on my "platinum" healthcare coverage, it covers the gap of the deductible (which I know isn't exactly the same thing). Or looked at another way, it pays for 2.75 weeks of daycare.

(And I say this as someone not overly invested in that world - I have a 17 yo stepdaughter, and I am fortunate that in addition to my excellent healthcare, my company pays 100% of the premiums for my partner and kid, not just me).

Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by adolph on Sunday February 11, 2024 @11:10AM (#39335949)
People living in high cost areas have chosen that.

It’s kind of like parking. If employees don’t pay for parking then an employer is subsidizing car driving over other options.

Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by dangus on Sunday February 11, 2024 @08:22PM (#39340483)
Did they? The typical person in the US lives within commuting distance from their mother: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2015/12/24/upshot/24up-f...
Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by adolph on Tuesday February 13, 2024 @10:17AM (#39358374)
Yes, making a choice to "within commuting distance from their mother" is still making a choice.
Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by dangus on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @03:21PM (#39374769)
What percentage of people under the age of 30 live with their parents to make ends meet?

Choosing between abandoning your family and maximizing your revenue isn’t exactly an even choice.

Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by adolph on Thursday February 15, 2024 @05:12PM (#39389867)
Living with others (parents, partners, etc) is something that decreases core costs of domiciling anywhere you go. That is an excellent method of maximizing revenue while not abandoning your family.

Otherwise, see The Complacent Class: The Self-Defeating Quest for the American Dream by Tyler Cowen.

https://www.amazon.com/Complacent-Class-Self-Defeating-Quest...

Re:What it was like working for Gitlab by glenngillen on Wednesday February 14, 2024 @09:51PM (#39378555)
That's not the way it works out in practice though. I've been a hiring manager and have had to see the impact these geo-based policies have on the salary of those in my teams. I work remotely and know how much it's hit me relative to my peers. Melbourne & Sydney are regularly listed in the list of most expensive cities in the world, yet Australia is almost always treated as one big market at the bottom end of the scale. I've had team members in Canada who are paid significant 6-figure amounts less than direct peers, if they moved ~1hr south they'd earn significantly more.

This is rarely about avoiding paying a FAANG engineer $500K and letting them work from Bali. They're weaponised in ways to give a plausible defence to why two people with the same role and experience are paid vastly different amounts for doing the same job.