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Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by Havoc on Saturday May 05, 2012 @10:30AM (#3932194)
I don't feel that the marketing or curation is problematic really. However:

Suppose I want to buy "A Song of Ice and Fire" for my Kindl - a reasonable enough proposition in my view. A quick check reveals two problems: Firstly those bits & bytes are somehow more expensive than the massmarket paperback - which is completely ridiculous. Secondly both the individual books and the set have warnings (either by amazon or reviewers) that clearly state that its a criminally bad OCR job.

So essentially the product is overpriced and defective. Doesn't matter under what genre you file that its a crap purchase.

Same thing for the Dune series. So in the mean time I think I'll just side-load books until Amazon sorts their shit out. Hell I'd even look past the overpriced bit if they fix the crap OCR jobs.

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by nnnnni on Saturday May 05, 2012 @11:24AM (#3932292)
What I don't get is WHY a modern book would require OCR to be turned into a digital format. The publisher surely has the original tex (or whatever format the author/editor used) file(s) that can easily be rendered to epub/mobi, right?!

If a book predates computers, I can understand OCR, but not for something that's been written in the past ~20 years and is popular enough to not be "lost".

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by cstross on Saturday May 05, 2012 @02:17PM (#3932769)
The publisher surely has the original tex (or whatever format the author/editor used) file(s) that can easily be rendered to epub/mobi, right?!

Wrong.

Prior to 2000, the MS may never have been submitted electronically; or might be in an obsolete format (Word Perfect, anyone?).Then, until circa 2008, the book was almost certainly copy-edited on paper -- that is, the editor printed out a paper copy and the copy-editor corrected typos by hand, which where then manually transcribed on a DTP system to produce the final output. The author therefore doesn't have an as-published electronic copy.

To make matters worse, all the big publishers outsourced copy-editing, typesetting, and printing many years ago. The typesetting was probably executed using Quark Publishing System on MacOS by an external agency, who then burned any backups on floppy disk or CDROM. The publishers do not own these, and in fact cannot acquire them without paying the typesetting bureau a three (or four) digit copying fee. So neither the authors nor the publishers own an as-published copy.

These days stuff is typeset on Adobe InDesign, which is a whole lot more ePub-friendly, and which can import Quark files ... except that Quark's format is notoriously idiosyncratic and import ops commonly lose some formatting info. (Such as italics, font changes, etc.)

TL:DR is that any book published before 2007 or thereabouts may be impossible to republish without either OCR or re-typesetting from scratch.

(TeX is pretty much unheard of among authors outside the science fields, and thanks to M$ churning the MS Word file format repeatedly between 1990 and 2008 it may be difficult to do anything with the original manuscript.)

Going forward the picture is brighter: I have as-published ebook editions of all my books and know how to crack the DRM on them to pull that text out in a legible form, with formatting intact. (Yes, I appreciate the irony of this. Why, just last week I emailed three DRM-cracked novels I downloaded off BitTorrent to an editor. I wrote 'em, the editor has a license to publish them in the UK, so it's legal, but ... the irony! It burns!)

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by Havoc on Monday May 14, 2012 @12:14PM (#3971683)
That makes sense - I always suspected something along those lines. That probably also explains why the Hunger games set I bought is fine.
Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by gwern on Saturday May 05, 2012 @11:47AM (#3932339)
They may have lost them. They may have a tiny glitch preventing conversion which the dude at the publisher simply can't figure out. Or something.

Publishers are as incompetent as anyone else. At ICON this year I got to go to a reading by David Weber (of _Honor Harrington_ etc), and he talked a little about dealing with a publisher and gave 2 examples of global search-and-replaces gone terribly wrong - Barons -> Earls, and Lords -> Knights, which resulted in him proofreading the entire books just to fix the S&R. Turns out publishers apparently don't use revision control either.

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by cstross on Saturday May 05, 2012 @02:26PM (#3932793)
Publishing People Are Not Computer People.

(Well, most of them. I think Tim O'Reilly might argue the toss :)

Authors of novels are even worse. They are in a career that typically doesn't get started until they're in their mid-thirties. So unless they got their start in IT/CS, you're looking at J. Random Middle-Aged Non-Techie.

Some of us know what a revision control system is. Most haven't got a clue, and aren't interested.

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by stcredzero on Saturday May 05, 2012 @03:22PM (#3932977)
Some of us know what a revision control system is. Most haven't got a clue, and aren't interested.

I'd bet a lot of them have seen the RCS-like abilities of Time Machine or Dropbox and been delighted or would react with delight if it those were demonstrated to them. A lot of them still wouldn't have a clue nor be interested, though.

If people have built content management systems for publishers like newspapers, someone must have thought of CMS for other publishers with roots in the dead-tree business.

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by cstross on Saturday May 05, 2012 @03:41PM (#3933040)
You're correct, but book publishers aren't used to thinking in those terms. Traditionally, the job results in a static lump of ink on paper. Game over: you sell it, you're done. In some fields it's a little different; text book publishers expect to issue new editions, for example. But those new editions are de facto different books, re-written and re-edited and re-typeset from scratch.

Newspapers and magazines need CMSs because they may need to pull or revise stories. Novels ... not so much. Yes, it's good to fix typos. In the world of paper publishing the author gets just one shot at that: the book goes back to be re-flowed for a different page size when it goes from hardcover into A-format paperback, and there's an opportunity to fix snags.

This is, obviously, going to change. In fact, I expect the bigger publishers to wake up real soon now and realize that not only do they have to do e-pub related things like drop DRM and fix the broken territorial rights problem, they also need to do internal process-related things -- like set up a CMS, in-source their typesetting, and modify their workflow to allow updates to existing-and-out-there books, rather than viewing the books as a terminal state at the end of a production process.

(Reasons why it should change? Well, for one thing it makes possible the issue of "director's cut" versions of a book. Yes, crass commercialism. But it also makes it possible to retarget books on a different audience. It makes it possible to rebundle in-series books in an omnibus edition. It makes it easier for the publisher to directly issue extracts from the book via their website, for promo purposes. Once layout/typesetting stops being a single step and becomes an ongoing process, there's every reason for in-housing it. And that, in turn, will require revision control and archival functions that publishers are currently unfamiliar with.)

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by stcredzero on Saturday May 05, 2012 @04:08PM (#3933127)
You're correct, but book publishers aren't used to thinking in those terms. Traditionally, the job results in a static lump of ink on paper. Game over: you sell it, you're done.

...

they also need to do internal process-related things -- like set up a CMS, in-source their typesetting, and modify their workflow to allow updates to existing-and-out-there books, rather than viewing the books as a terminal state at the end of a production process.

I think there's a 3-way non zero-sum opportunity (win-win-win) lurking here if one can get away from the idea that the unit of production is a book as a lump of dead-tree or even as a particular string of bits or even as a stream of versions of a particular string of bits. Instead of focusing on curating individual books, wouldn't everyone win by developing CMS for curating collections of things, like author bibliographies?

In a way, this is what disparate parts of the industry already do. (Like this book by C. Stross? Why not try this other book by C. Stross? Like this book that's supposed to be "Hard Sci-Fi?" Why not read this other book...?) They're already trying to get customers to think of their brand as a good source of [some classification]. They're also motivated to get customers to think of an author as a brand as a good source of [some classification]. This is also how publishers and editors approach the brand represented by anthology series. Really, publishing at its core is the curation of a bibliographies. Customers and authors would benefit from such directed curation. (On the other hand, this might also perpetuate restrictive terms between authors and publishers.)

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by gwern on Sunday May 06, 2012 @05:55PM (#3936465)
Indeed. I may or may not have asked whether they had revision control, but I do remember Weber remarking that his editor and publisher liked the old paper ways of doing things, and that's why he still was mailing back and forth physical books and paperwork.

(As I get older, I am becoming more sympathetic to this: paper stays put when you take your eyes off it, while bits do not.)

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by grogs on Saturday May 05, 2012 @05:54PM (#3933396)
Even so, paying for a proof reader or two isn't a lot to ask. Especially when they're charging more for the books.
Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by waterlesscloud on Saturday May 05, 2012 @10:41AM (#3932216)
Both of those issues are the fault of the publisher, not Amazon. The publishers are being dragged kicking and screaming (and whining) into the ebook future, and they're not doing a very good job of serving their customers as a result.
Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by Havoc on Monday May 14, 2012 @12:01PM (#3971590)
You're right, perhaps I shouldn't have mentioned Amazon as the culprit. Nonetheless I feel Amazon is partly to blame since they clearly have the muscle to force the publishers to fix their mess.

Besides, how difficult can it be? Find a competent English major, fuel him/her with some red bull, pizza and bit of cash and they'll fix it. Hell, if they had a mechanism to do so the fans of these books (Dune etc) would probably fix it for free.

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by T-hawk on Saturday May 05, 2012 @12:01PM (#3932376)
Pricing an e-book higher than the paperback is not ridiculous. That's capitalism. If technology has enabled a new version of a product that is superior for the customer in convenience or capabilities, the customer will be willing to pay more and the producer has every right to capture that, regardless of what it costs to produce. (Leaving aside OCR quality issues.)

This happens all the time. DVDs cost less to produce than VHS but sold for more because customers were willing to pay. TicketMaster can charge its service fee because customers will pay, even though it's certainly lower cost for TM to email PDFs than to staff a physical box office and buy ticket printers. A smart capitalist captures the consumer value he creates, regardless of his own costs.

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by cabalamat on Saturday May 05, 2012 @01:21PM (#3932616)
> If technology has enabled a new version of a product that is superior for the customer in convenience or capabilities, the customer will be willing to pay more

This might be true if people were rational utility-maximisers. They're not, and people are quite capable of choosing not to buy something if they feel it's a rip off.

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by philwelch on Saturday May 05, 2012 @04:47PM (#3933234)
...at which point the price would fall, which it empirically hasn't, implying that customers are, indeed, willing to pay more after all.
Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by waterlesscloud on Saturday May 05, 2012 @12:11PM (#3932410)
Conditionally superior in convenience, pluses and minuses in capabilities, definite minus in terms of ownership.

Ticketmaster is an effective monopoly, publishers are an effective oligopoly. Neither are exactly capitalism's finest examples.

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by Havoc on Saturday May 05, 2012 @06:24PM (#3933463)
You are quite right, in that prices are set to whatever the market will bear. You're viewing things from the perspective of an individual price setter though.

I was talking more in terms of a bigger picture view: In a competitive market with high net profit margins more competitors should enter the market & undercut the existing prices. Mean that in the long run, the sales price of an item should approach the cost price. Now producing & delivering an additional ebook costs perhaps 1 cent, while producing an additional paper book costs perhaps a dollar. So ebooks should be sold at 1 cent + minor contribution to fixed cost + near zero profit, while paper books should be sold at 1 dollar + minor contribution to fixed cost + near zero profit. i.e. ebooks should be dirty cheap compared to paper books.

Yet in practice ebooks are somehow maintaining their prices way beyond what one would expect per economic theory. Little surprise then that various publishers are currently in trouble for price-fixing of ebooks.

Courts work slowly though & in the mean time I'm still pissed about the price I'm paying for those (badly OCR'd) bits & bytes.

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by ArcticCelt on Saturday May 05, 2012 @11:50AM (#3932348)
And thirdly, you don't own your overpriced defective digital book but only hold a temporary licensee to read it. Of course you can eventually end with nothing once the license provider goes bankrupt or decide to change his business model.
Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by hmahncke on Saturday May 05, 2012 @12:21PM (#3932434)
I bought all five volumes for my kindle, and they obviously weren't OCR'd.
Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by Havoc on Monday May 14, 2012 @12:09PM (#3971640)
Could you please elaborate? (Pretty please)

I see there is a recently published set I didn't see before containing all 5 books:

http://www.amazon.com/Song-Ice-Fire-Continues-ebook/dp/B007B...

Is that the one that is fine?

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by hmahncke on Tuesday May 15, 2012 @11:59PM (#3980414)
I don't think I did anything more fancy than google "amazon kindle game of thrones" which took me to http://www.amazon.com/Game-Thrones-Song-Fire-ebook/dp/B000QC...

I didn't buy them as a set - I bought them one by one.

Hope that helps. Fun books.

Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by hmahncke on Wednesday May 16, 2012 @12:02AM (#3980422)
There's something a bit odd about that page/edition - only one review, and just a few likes - the one I bought has thousands of reviews and likes. Could your link be a rip-off, and that's why the OCR was so bad?
Re:How the shift to ebooks will affect genre categories in f... by Havoc on Friday May 18, 2012 @05:26PM (#3994115)
The previous set was 4 books, this one is 5. Its recently been released. So I'm kinda hoping its got fixed OCR.