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Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by baron816 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:05PM (#39021084)
As a liberal raised during the backlash to the Iraq War, my attitude towards the Military Industrial Complex has really changed in the aftermath of Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and China’s seemingly inevitable invasion of Taiwan. Add in the possibility that the US could be dragged into new wars in the Middle East and even possibly South America, and I really don’t think we have the luxury to say “weapons bad, let’s not build any”.

Being the policeman of the world absolutely sucks. War absolutely sucks. But one of the best ways to prevent China, Russia, Iran, Venezuela, etc from saying “might make right, let’s take this land and these resources from our neighbors, since no one can stop us” is for the US to say, “no, we will stop you and we have the will and the tools to easily do it.”

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by dogman144 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:15PM (#39021187)
Unless you’re willing to help police or let your kids do it, I wouldn’t be so quick to forget the lessons of armchair patriot’ing wrapped up in saving the world mythologies as to give the US’s international military policy carte blanche, was the main lesson from Iraq. War sucks, but what sucks more is a public giving itself license to disengage bc of an easy moral justification. Approaches like this are why the AUMF (the… only legal approval for going to war) wasn’t authorized, let alone voted on for 10+ years.
Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by AYBABTME on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:32PM (#39021381)
The US is the most benign empire one could wish for. History makes that plain, and just peeking over the fence at contender's tendencies and track record further reinforces that. Easy moral justification backed by actual moral justification.
Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by dogman144 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:46PM (#39021515)
Completely misses the point, it displays the same convenient abstraction as OP.

Commentator - great moral justification.

Service member - 20 yrs of deployments in a failed war congress couldn’t be bothered to vote on authorizing, per their constitutional mandate, since the first year of it.

Thanks for standing for the flag at football games though.

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by AYBABTME on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:53PM (#39021569)
Don't understand what you're saying. I don't do football games and don't stand for flags, but I served abroad in an ultimately pointless multi-decade war. I'm not American.

I still think the world is incredibly lucky that the US has been the dominant power for the last 80y.

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by racketcon2089 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:38PM (#39021441)
Would the abstract "one" you're thinking of happen to be a middle class college educated American who has never been on the receiving end of American benevolence in the form of saturated bombing of civilian areas, nor been at risk of being drafted to fight overseas?

Is your point that those people's lives are somehow inherently less valuable or is your point that you're willing to sacrifice as many of them as it takes to get a good outcome for you?

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by sebzim4500 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:48PM (#39021534)
>nor been at risk of being drafted to fight overseas?

I doubt there will ever be another draft in the US. As technology becomes more important the priority will be keeping the industrial base running for military R&D and weapon manufacturing, not on having millions of barely trained kids most of which you can't properly equip.

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by racketcon2089 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:50PM (#39021547)
I can tell you're not in Ukraine or Israel right now. Would you like to know how?
Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by Aeolun on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @08:19PM (#39021797)
He’s talking about the US military. Why would they be in Ukraine or Israel?
Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by racketcon2089 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @09:02PM (#39022204)
Neither Ukraine nor Israel have reached this hypothetical technological era in which a draft is not required, and those facts are inescapable to any American in those countries observing it.

One reason the US military doesn't need a draft is because its proxy forces which are supplied by US equipment do have a military draft.

This is not a complex argument nor are there any facts which are not mutually agreed upon by all parties here.

I'm not able to follow the ideological contortions that would be required to not understand something as simple as:

"The US supplies the equipment, and the local US-backed government uses a draft to supply its army with the number of soldiers it needs to use the equipment."

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by Aeolun on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @11:28PM (#39023303)
Well, there is the thing where the US has a massive army even without a draft. They’d need to fight some near equal opponent to ever get to the point where their professional army needs to be supplemented.

Though I don’t disagree with the premise that we’re still far away from purely AI warfare.

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by sebzim4500 on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @09:07AM (#39027830)
>Neither Ukraine nor Israel have reached this hypothetical technological era in which a draft is not required,

They have worse equipment and a much smaller professional army.

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by AYBABTME on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:49PM (#39021542)
I'm going to ignore your attempt at ad-hominem because you're far off mark. Anyways: (1) there will be violence and people will suffer from someone else's power (2) you're better off wishing for that power to be as nice as it can be (3) the US has been about as nice as one could wish for, based on historical precedent and what contenders are demonstrating they would do.

Of course the US has done plenty of bad stuff to plenty of people. But you're delusional if you think some alternative power would have been gentler.

I too wish for a world power that never resolves to violence and never does any mistake. I too think that life is valuable everywhere, and that none should be sacrificed. But the real world doesn't yet offer us these circumstances.

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by racketcon2089 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:55PM (#39021587)
>But you're delusional if you think some alternative power would have been gentler.

You're saying that people who don't agree with a non-falsifiable claim about hypothetical alternatives are delusional. That suggests a closed system of thought which has left behind empiricism and must now be considered metaphysical. I'm a plain materialist so I can't go any further with any statements that assert definite knowledge of things outside of material reality.

>I too wish for a world power that never resolves to violence and never does any mistake

This has nothing to do with what I said and is not an opinion I hold so you must've meant to respond to someone else, I definitely wouldn't want to say that you're irrational, overly emotional, and have become accustomed to arguing by intentionally mischaracterizing what other people say to preserve your existing psychological commitments in a fundamentally juvenile and dishonest way.

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by Aeolun on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @08:24PM (#39021842)
It feels like you understand where he was going with his comment and are deliberately misconstruing it to have something to reply to?

As much as I do not enjoy the US doing all these things, I think it’s fair to say that they’re maybe the most benevolent?

I don’t think China historically has a great track record when it comes to military intervention, but they also mostly leave people alone.

The US seems to always go in with the best of intentions only to royally fuck it up.

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by racketcon2089 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @08:56PM (#39022154)
A more sophisticated thinker would ask questions like "from which people's perspective?" and "at what point in time?"

These questions would give you access to critical insights, one of them is that it's never persuasive to take a rough estimate of hypothetical aggregate good and bad and then attempt to weigh it using one's personal intuitions at present to derive a universal claim.

Peoples who were ethnically cleansed at scale to facilitate settler or US commercial expansion or currently suffer under US-backed dictatorships will tend to have a negative view of the US as an empire.

People whose countries need the US as an ally to protect them from an aggressive regional power and/or currently experience economic prosperity and political stability within a democratic government because of the US will tend to have a positive view of the US as an empire.

Telling a Guatemalan whose entire family was massacred by US-trained death squads in the Guatemalan civil war that you've done the math from a god's eye view and the US is the best possible hegemon in aggregate is unpersuasive, bordering on absurd.

It would be like arguing to a Polish person whose entire family was executed in stalinist trials of the 1940s that the Soviet Union was in aggregate benign because of all the aid they gave out to peoples fighting wars of liberation from european colonial dictatorships, which in aggregate killed far more people than Stalin did.

If you can't understand that the second example and the first are equally absurd, you are wearing ideological blinkers that make it hard for people outside the US to take you seriously.

Attributing malice to other empires but "good intentions gone awry" to your own is a fundamental attribution error, and one you should be wary of to avoid unpleasant surprises in foreign policy outcomes.

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by Aeolun on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @11:23PM (#39023271)
> Peoples who were ethnically cleansed at scale to facilitate settler or US commercial expansion or currently suffer under US-backed dictatorships will tend to have a negative view of the US as an empire.

Obviously. But would they have been happier if it was a different country doing it?

I can think of a few countries that would probably have been better, but none of them are in a position to actually do so. I can think of many countries that would have been worse, some of which could have, but didn’t do so.

> It would be like arguing to a Polish person whose entire family was executed in stalinist trials of the 1940s that the Soviet Union was in aggregate benign because of all the aid they gave out to peoples fighting wars of liberation from european colonial dictatorships, which in aggregate killed far more people than Stalin did.

While it would be a boneheaded thing to do if you had any social grace, would it make it any less true (assuming it were true)?

On the whole I’m just less likely to trust the good intentions of a (near) dictatorship than that of a democracy.

That may be because I grew up in one, but I can’t exactly change that.

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by AYBABTME on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @02:00AM (#39024217)
I think being alive is awesome in aggregate even though there are people whose existence is miserable and for whom it's absurd to suggest that life might be awesome.

You might think Descartes was an awesome human, but what about the broken hearts he left behind? His past lovers might think your aggregate perspective is absurd.

Your focus on picking particular contradictory perspectives doesn't seem relevant to me. I don't think it's particularly sophisticated. It comes to me as being more interested in cynicism than pragmatism for aesthetic reasons.

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by amrocha on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @09:05PM (#39022226)
Sorry, I guess I'm wrong for thinking the empire that literally installed a brutal military dictatorship in my country is evil. It was actually benign the whole time. Please torture me, it's actually good to be tortured.
Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by pazimzadeh on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:25PM (#39021305)
> “might make right, let’s take this land and these resources from our neighbors, since no one can stop us”

From Wikipedia:

"From the time of the discovery of oil in Iran, foreign powers used force and exploited the weakness of the Iranian state to coerce it into concessions which allowed foreign companies to control oil extraction"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization_of_the_Iranian...

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by datavirtue on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @08:04PM (#39021672)
"Being the policeman of the world absolutely sucks"

What's the alternative? It's as good a job as any and we are all enjoying it's warmth, right now.

Humans need war. Kurt even waved off his anti-war schtick after thinking about it long enough. This was a guy who lived though the direct impact of unimaginable destruction and death brought on by war. He profited from it!

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by quesera on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @10:33PM (#39022929)
Cobain, Gödel, Weill, Russell, or Vonnegut?

Were you friends?

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by brunoqc on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:07PM (#39021100)
Fuck yeah. Nobody steals resources except us.
Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by vkou on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:21PM (#39021267)
> But one of the best ways to prevent China, Russia, Iran, Venezuela, etc from saying “might make right, let’s take this land and these resources from our neighbors, since no one can stop us”...

... Is not antagonizing them when they were reaching out to build a partnership, which is exactly what was happening with Russia in the 90s. If you're wondering how Putin happened, that's the decade that you want to be looking at.

Instead, the US figured that since the Cold War, round I went so well, why not do it again, and oh hey, Russian revanchism is on the rise and now Ukraine is dealing with the consequences, but hey, we're giving Russia their very own second Vietnam, so I guess that's nice. Maybe not very nice in Ukraine, but they are, after all, a buffer state...

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by Aeolun on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @08:26PM (#39021858)
Wut? Russia was well on it’s way to full integration when Putin decided to go batshit crazy.
Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by gremlinunderway on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:09PM (#39021119)
This is the kind of realpolitik that lead the USA to push for NATO expansion in the 90s despite the clear indication that this would only antagonize and generate paranoia in Russia. The lesson from the Ukraine war for the United States is blowback, not lesson learned.
Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by pyuser583 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:18PM (#39021223)
The alternative to NATO expansion was transferring European defense to the EU.

Or having a bunch of EU nations extremely vulnerable to Russian influence.

I’m very glad it’s NATO, and not the “EU Supreme Command” defending the Continent. Russia and Ukraine probably are too.

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by blibble on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @08:37PM (#39021971)
Russia would have loved "EU Supreme Command" instead of NATO

the Germans would have happily given Ukraine up (and likely Poland too) if they got a few cents off their gas bill

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by idopmstuff on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:16PM (#39021206)
Avoiding doing anything that might antagonize the bad guys isn't a particularly effective strategy for maintaining a stable and peaceful world. The lesson of Poland in WW2 is that when evil dictators get what they want, they don't calmly stop doing bad things.
Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by Footkerchief on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:39PM (#39021456)
Among the countries interested in joining NATO during the 90s was Russia itself, even as it began waging brutal wars against its neighbors, who thereby have earned far more right to be paranoid than Russia has.
Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by woah on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @07:26PM (#39021315)
If NATO hadn't expanded then Russia would currently be invading Poland and Austria. Why would this be a good thing?
Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by blibble on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @08:35PM (#39021945)
given their immediate prior history, maybe those countries wanted to join so they'd never have to endure the horrors of being under Russian domination yet again?

not even the Russian population wants to be under Russian control

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by justinclift on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @08:05PM (#39021684)
> Being the policeman of the world absolutely sucks.

It would probably suck less if it was more neutral and without the self dealing / corruption.

The "policeman of the world" thing often seems like just a fig leaf / marketing to paper over dodgy stuff. :(

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by krapp on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @08:31PM (#39021910)
>The "policeman of the world" thing often seems like just a fig leaf / marketing to paper over dodgy stuff. :(

It really is. The US had the advantage of coming out of World War 2 relatively unscathed compared to Europe, as well as the only active nuclear arsenal at the time, as well as every Nazi rocket engineer and Japanese bioweapons expert it could pick up. It basically made the Western world an offer it couldn't refuse - accept American hegemony, military occupation and generous loans for postwar reconstruction or flip a coin on whether Washington or Moscow nukes you into atoms in the great game of superpower chess that would define the 20th century.

It isn't hard to look at American foreign policy as being little more than a shakedown operation.

Re:OpenAI drops ban on military tools to partner with The Pe... by bigstrat2003 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @11:16PM (#39023220)
> But one of the best ways to prevent China, Russia, Iran, Venezuela, etc from saying “might make right, let’s take this land and these resources from our neighbors, since no one can stop us”

It's not our place to stop that. Our place is to defend ourselves and anyone with whom we have a formal alliance. Beyond that, we cannot and should not attempt to play world police.