News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Prison. Bankruptcy. Suicide. How a software glitch ruined... by mywacaday on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @09:46AM (#39013800)
SW engineering is still in its infancy compared to other disciplines that have 100s of years of knowledge accumulated and built into their education process. SW education is different country to country and institution to institution. In no other engineering discipline would it be tolerated that you could be self educated. The lack of a standards and governing body that you would be expected to be accredited to is a major gap.
Re:Prison. Bankruptcy. Suicide. How a software glitch ruined... by anthk on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:01PM (#39015615)
In Europe in order to be called yourself an Engineer you need a Bachelor's Degree as a mininum. If not, it's illegal to work as an Engineer because being one requires civil accountability on casualities. You might work as one only if a colleague at work signs up your project. And, yet, depending on the case your colleague will refuse because he or she would be the one to sue in case of risks.
Re:Prison. Bankruptcy. Suicide. How a software glitch ruined... by synecdoche on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:39PM (#39016168)
Not in Sweden. There are a lot of creatively named engineers around here.
Re:Prison. Bankruptcy. Suicide. How a software glitch ruined... by syndicatedjelly on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @03:25PM (#39018630)
This is true in the US in regulated industries as well
Re:Prison. Bankruptcy. Suicide. How a software glitch ruined... by graemep on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @04:06PM (#39019144)
Not everywhere in Europe. Not in the UK for example.

There is legal accountability though, and a much better understanding of who can be held to blame for what. Software suppliers are pretty much immune to consequences of carelessness.

However, I think the real problem is that software is far more complex than a bridge or a building. IT system have complex hardware (far more complex than any mechanical device) running even more complex software (counting all the layers from OS up). On top of that people (meaning users/buyers) have no idea how to evaluate safety/reliability/security and mostly seem to regard it as a nice to have to be traded off against other nice to haves, not an essential baseline.

Once its implement everyone assumes the computer must be right, and acts accordingly. The presumption that computers are right is even enshrined in UK law (the intent was to stop people getting out of things like speeding tickets by claiming speed cameras where faulty) but I think everyone has come across situations where the final word on a dispute was "the computer says so".

Re:Prison. Bankruptcy. Suicide. How a software glitch ruined... by anthk on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @08:14AM (#39027180)
How about the safe code in avionics/nuclear sites, ADA/Spark, Misra C? Not magic or as safe-proof as a physical engineering where it's far easier to guess how a system will behave, OFC, but it's a good start.
Re:Prison. Bankruptcy. Suicide. How a software glitch ruined... by graemep on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @09:01AM (#39027754)
Yes, it gets done when necessary which shows we can do it.

It does not get done everywhere because it is not a high enough priority.

Re:Prison. Bankruptcy. Suicide. How a software glitch ruined... by brnt on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @04:56PM (#39019693)
I'm pretty sure that Bologna abolished 'Engineer' titles.
Re:Prison. Bankruptcy. Suicide. How a software glitch ruined... by germanier on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @01:49AM (#39024131)
In Germany, the protected title Ingenieur is still around but most bachelor degrees in a technical field grant you the right to use it. Whether or not you are one doesn't change the liability situation (although you can't perform certain works at all without). It's not really relevant in software development.

The English term "Engineer" can be used by anybody though.

Re:Prison. Bankruptcy. Suicide. How a software glitch ruined... by anthk on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @08:11AM (#39027157)
I think not, because the difference between being an actual one and not it's to spend several years in jail (you and your employer) in case of life or health related damages and harms.