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Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by threeseed on Monday January 15, 2024 @01:26PM (#39004200)
There are two interesting questions:

a) Will Apple not allow apps on the official App Store if they appear on third party ones.

b) How will Apple collect their commission. There is nothing in the regulation that says that they can't continue to do this.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by micwag on Monday January 15, 2024 @01:35PM (#39004322)
a) This is explicitly forbidden

b) Apple is free to act as payment provider, but can't force businesses to use it.

If they decide to do it anyway:

  In case a gatekeeper does not comply with the obligations laid out in the DMA, the Commission can impose fines up to 10% of the company's total worldwide turnover, which can go up to 20% in case of repeated infringement. In case of systematic infringements, the Commission is also empowered to adopt additional remedies such as obliging a gatekeeper to sell a business or parts of it, or banning the gatekeeper from acquiring additional services related to the systemic non-compliance.
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/QANDA_...

Apples iMessage is also currently evaluated. In a total coincidence Apple also announced recently that RCS support is coming.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by bdcravens on Monday January 15, 2024 @02:03PM (#39004681)
Strange that they can be fined based on worldwide turnover for rules broken in the EU.
Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by 9point6 on Monday January 15, 2024 @08:13PM (#39008201)
This is how these EU regulations get their teeth: turnover not profit and global not local to a region—they can't creatively account their way out of the fine and it's always going to be big enough to really want to avoid, no matter the size of the company. None of this "the fine is just the permit fee for those that can afford it" attitude.
Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by theshrike79 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @01:11AM (#39010015)
And it's not the company, it's the whole conglomerate.

So Google can't just make an EU subsidiary that never makes a profit and thus the fines don't have teeth.

It's the global turnover of Alphabet Corporation.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by extraduder_ire on Wednesday January 17, 2024 @06:14AM (#39026240)
I have to assume at least one company is going to try setting up a company, completely divesting from it, and contracting it to perform operations in the EU. With an open process for tender, even.

Not that it'd work, but might be amusing.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by xbmcuser on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @12:26AM (#39009817)
No what is stranger is 1million dollar fines on trillion dollar companies then expecting to change behaviour. In some European fines for speeding etc are also based on a person income $100 fine on a millionaire won't have any effect
Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by orra on Monday January 15, 2024 @01:32PM (#39004272)
Of course they can't collect ”commission” on payments they're not involved with. The entire point of the Act is to crack down on anticompetitive behaviour. Your example is textbook, and I am certain the text of the law bans it.
Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by threeseed on Monday January 15, 2024 @01:40PM (#39004383)
Apple can absolutely collect their 15-30% commission.

You are using their developer tools and SDKs and like other tooling e.g. game engines they can recoup this cost through a per-sale model.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by zamadatix on Monday January 15, 2024 @01:47PM (#39004482)
I think it's more a matter of "is there a way that complies with the wording and intent of the DMA" than "is there a way to separate the commission from the App Store app itself". Even then, if it's not what the regulators intend it wouldn't be allowed to stand. This isn't a case of breaking some ancient law or technicality and needing to shore up, it's a brand new law with the intent of stopping this kind of practice hindering markets.

They tried similar minded tactics already with the Dutch complaints already and they weren't blindly accepted.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by threeseed on Monday January 15, 2024 @01:52PM (#39004535)
Wording and intent of the DMA makes no reference to commissions.

And there is nothing anti-competitive about Apple charging for their developer kit.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by zamadatix on Monday January 15, 2024 @02:03PM (#39004688)
It doesn't need to explicitly mention commissions, law is not an ACL. The regulators and DMA just need to consider that it qualifies as e.g. gatekeeping, which is centrally referenced. Even if it can't be defined as a required action of gatekeeping today the DMA allows for the commission to quickly update that to qualify and require action by Apple. If, by some miracle, the regulators truly made a law which doesn't allow them to regulate the anti-competitiveness they intended too and they are truly beat by some gotcha this time then Apple has only bought a delay not an exception.

$99/year for the development kit will probably be seen as reasonable enough for it to be allowed, though they may have to accept allowing 3rd party alternative solutions to publish things to these other app stores or similar. The fixed price of the development kit isn't really the point when talking about the 30% commission though. That's about revenue from consumer purchases and trying to evade that via moving the pricing to the dev kit wholly then requiring the dev kit will not fly just because the DMA doesn't explicitly reference doing that being an example of a bad gatekeeping action.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by gruez on Monday January 15, 2024 @02:38PM (#39005125)
>The regulators and DMA just need to consider that it qualifies as e.g. gatekeeping, which is centrally referenced. Even if it can't be defined as a required action of gatekeeping today the DMA allows for the commission to quickly update that to qualify and require action by Apple. If, by some miracle, the regulators truly made a law which doesn't allow them to regulate the anti-competitiveness they intended too and they are truly beat by some gotcha this time then Apple has only bought a delay not an exception.

Is charging a royalty for using the iOS SDK "gatekeeping"? I don't see why that's the case. Is Epic Games "gatekeeping" Unreal Engine by demanding 5% royalty to use their engine? Why should it be any different for Apple to demand royalty for using their SDK?

Even if EU magically made a law that explicitly banned royalties for operating system SDKs, that won't be the end of the story. Such measures could be construed as anti-free trade (given how it disproportionately affects US companies compared to EU companies), and will probably lead to a trade war and/or WTO arbitration between the EU and the US.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by zamadatix on Monday January 15, 2024 @05:04PM (#39006668)
If they kept it to something like 5% and don't try to stop alternatives when used with other stores then it's probably not something that'd cause problems. The same is true for any sane pricing of external API integrations regardless of source as charging for push notifications or similar is fine by itself too.

Where they'd get into trouble is by trying to turn these things into ways to move the 30% revenue cut. Just moving the 30% revenue from "rights to be on the one and only store" to "rights to write apps against the device with the one and only SDK" is quite clearly a different motive and forced cost model than having a 5% SDK fee where the developer is free to choose a different SDK.

I.e. "but others charge for an SDK" doesn't allow you to then change your SDK cost model to exactly match what was deemed illegally anticompetitive forced market pricing. It just allows you to charge for your SDK in a competitive way, nothing more.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by blueelephanttea on Monday January 15, 2024 @02:26PM (#39004991)
> And there is nothing anti-competitive about Apple charging for their developer kit.

Not only that but a bunch of iOS apis incur services costs on Apple's side. Certainly seems valid that they should be able to charge to provide push notifications, iCloud storage, etc. There is a wide industry of businesses monetizing development kit usage and/or enterprise services. Nothing in the EU's regulations should preclude Apple from monetizing their investment into the iOS development platform.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by ethbr1 on Monday January 15, 2024 @01:55PM (#39004579)
I'm not sure even Apple wants to be flippant about EU regulation.

"See this one neat legal flaw that EU regulators hate!" isn't an approach a US$350B-revenue-company wants to take, with a regulator who's already signalled their intent.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by mdhb on Monday January 15, 2024 @02:16PM (#39004861)
Is there a reason why you’re speaking with such certainty?

Are you a lawyer specialising in the topic?

Do you actually know anything about this or is this just your opinion presented as fact?

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by orra on Monday January 15, 2024 @05:39PM (#39007034)
The law is called “Regulation (EU) 2022/1925 of the European Parliament and of the Council on contestable and fair markets in the digital sector”.

It's not an outrageous conclusion that the law bans blatantly unfair practices, when that's what it sets out to do.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by micwag on Monday January 15, 2024 @02:00PM (#39004650)
Apple probably will be able to continue to charge 99$/year for their developer kit.
Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by dylan604 on Monday January 15, 2024 @02:34PM (#39005073)
isn't that what the $99/year fee is for? the commission from app sales was for the service provided via the store
Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by abhibeckert on Monday January 15, 2024 @08:40PM (#39008358)
Who says I'm using their tools? I might build my app using Electron or GTK.

I don't think Apple can have a requirement to use their proprietary tools. That would be anti-competitive. If they want to make money off the tools... they should just charge a fee to buy the tools.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by fingerlocks on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @06:51AM (#39012254)
The regulation doesn’t allow you to mmap w^x willy-nilly, the hardening and sandbox are still enforced by the OS.
Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by thejsa on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @10:00AM (#39013962)
> The regulation doesn’t allow you to mmap w^x willy-nilly

Yesn’t; I don’t think the regulators would look kindly upon Apple restricting third-party JITs, since it’d give Safari/WebKit an unfair competitive advantage over other browser engines on iOS (something I believe the DMA is also meant to open up.)

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by apocalyptic0n3 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @10:42AM (#39014542)
Third party payments have always been possible to implement in iOS apps; I've done it myself. What happens, however, is Apple rejects your app during the review process if the payment is for something they deem should be an in-app purchase or subscription (physical purchases are fine). Without that review process, you don't have to use Apple's payment process and can use Stripe or Braintree or whatever you want, and bypass Apple's 15-30% commission.
Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by fingerlocks on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @01:35PM (#39016855)
I think you responded to the wrong person. I was talking about the restrictions against mapping pages of memory as executable
Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by m463 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @02:50AM (#39010616)
Developing with non-apple toolchains would be a big win.

It would be interesting to see if people can replace parts of ios (sort of like grapheneos cuts out google)

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by pavlov on Monday January 15, 2024 @01:29PM (#39004235)
"a) Will Apple not allow apps on the official App Store if they appear on third party ones."

That would look very much like an anti-competitive move to the same EU regulators who are forcing Apple to open the store for competition reasons.

Apple can continue to enforce their own rules on their own store, but demanding exclusivity probably isn't an option for them.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by gjsman-1000 on Monday January 15, 2024 @01:31PM (#39004253)
> a) Will Apple not allow apps on the official App Store if they appear on third party ones.

The EU almost certainly wouldn't allow it.

> b) How will Apple collect their commission. There is nothing in the regulation that says that they can't continue to do this.

See Denmark which has an App Store carveout for in-app purchases within dating apps. Basically, Apple wants records and reserves the right to audit.

Considering this is more than in-app purchases, I would expect a requirement for an Apple Developer account and a legal agreement to get a process similar to notarization on macOS.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by threeseed on Monday January 15, 2024 @01:38PM (#39004355)
It will be interesting if it's the Denmark model or whether they put the responsibility on third party app stores to supply this data to Apple on behalf of the hosted apps.

Either way third party app stores should end up being noticeably more expensive than using the official. Especially once they start having to deal with fraud, chargebacks etc.

Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by dickersnoodle on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @08:36AM (#39013095)
And when they start seeing that extra expense they'll go whining to the EU regulators again.
Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by SllX on Monday January 15, 2024 @01:58PM (#39004622)
Netherlands, not Denmark. People from the Netherlands are Dutch and people from Denmark are Danish.
Re:App Store to Be 'Split in Two' Ahead of EU iPhone Sideloa... by wkat4242 on Tuesday January 16, 2024 @06:50PM (#39020900)
Ugh I hope not notarization. It's a real pain to deal with on Mac if you're building packages. And also a privacy leak as it used to send the app hash to Apple on every launch. This has now been reduced to once a week but still..

Luckily it can still be avoided by turning off gatekeeper.