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Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by Wowfunhappy on Monday January 08, 2024 @08:05AM (#38911363)
What they really mean is "no scientific evidence. If Crazy Carl says that aliens abducted his prize turnip, there is still no scientific evidence of aliens.
Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by roenxi on Monday January 08, 2024 @08:13AM (#38911434)
1. That might rule out psychology as a branch of science.

2. This gets back to the point Scott is making - now define "scientific evidence". For any reasonable definition of scientific evidence, there is a lot of evidence for almost everything. I can find scientific evidence for aliens if I want to - to a terribly low standard, true enough - although what Scott picked on was homeopathy which works a bit better.

People underestimate lies, damn lies and statistics. There are facts that back up any worldview, no matter how insane. Carl could find scientific evidence to back up his theory. There'll be anomalous weather station readings, weird sounds, academics papers published by crazy academics that kinda support him. We've all met monomaniacal people; they aren't shy of finding scientific evidence for their case. Still bunk though.

Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by wongarsu on Monday January 08, 2024 @08:28AM (#38911605)
It also rules out game theory as a science. Which might be fine if you think that math isn't a science, but then you have to resort to physical experiments to collect scientific evidence that 100 + 2 is indeed 102.
Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by Almondsetat on Monday January 08, 2024 @08:59AM (#38911970)
100 + 2 doesn't exist in reality so...
Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by awwaiid on Monday January 08, 2024 @08:32AM (#38911657)
I think they call that chemistry and it is indeed an important part.
Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by CoastalCoder on Monday January 08, 2024 @10:31AM (#38913363)
> For any reasonable definition of scientific evidence, there is a lot of evidence for almost everything.

Slight tangent, but I've seen a similar thing when trying to decide which religion, if any, is true:

Every one I looked at had at least a few very intelligent, seemingly rational adherents. It seems like there's a subjective element to what evidence each person finds persuasive.

Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by remram on Monday January 08, 2024 @09:28AM (#38912353)
What if Crazy Carl has ever published a scientific paper? Does it count? Does the paper need to specifically be about turnips? Or about aliens?

It's not like there is a "scientist" card that some people carry and some don't... and it's not like none of the hypothetical card-carrying scientists would ever have crazy opinions.

Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by boomboomsubban on Monday January 08, 2024 @09:39AM (#38912531)
It's not whether he has some magical "scientist" card, it's whether he ran an experiment.

Imagine Carl ran an experiment where he put a sign in front of various groups of turnips asking for things like aliens, Bigfoot, or faeries to take the turnips.

After running this experiment, only the turnips with signs associated to aliens were taken.

In this scenario, Carl would have some scientific evidence suggesting aliens took his turnips. It'd be weak evidence that likely wouldn't be replicated, but still evidence.

Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by torstenvl on Monday January 08, 2024 @10:05AM (#38912937)
This seems deeply flawed. How did the hypothesis forming the basis of the experiment get formed in the first place if there was "no evidence"?

An analysis of compounds in DNA finds that there are, within a small margin of error, identical quantities of adenine and thymine, and identical quantities of guanine and cytosine. You have not yet been able to experimentally verify your hypothesis of a base pair rule. It is nevertheless not true to say there is "no evidence" of a base pair rule.

Sufficient evidence to form a reasonable hypothesis, but insufficient evidence to elevate your hypothesis to a theory, is still some evidence, and it is a lie to say otherwise.

Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by FrustratedMonky on Monday January 08, 2024 @11:13AM (#38914112)
Is this in response to the alien comment. "This seems deeply flawed."

Really? The scientific method is flawed.

The OP had a funny alien example, so someone stretched and came up with a silly 'test' for a hypothesis of the alien ate the turnip.

That doesn't mean 'testing' is flawed way of determining 'evidence'.

Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by torstenvl on Monday January 08, 2024 @11:28AM (#38914386)
I never said the scientific method is flawed. Your understanding of it, however, seems to be profoundly deficient, if you think the scientific method says "the only thing that constitutes evidence of any sort is something that has been specifically verified by experiment."
Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by FrustratedMonky on Monday January 08, 2024 @02:26PM (#38916811)
Testing and experimentation would be the high bar of evidence.

Then of course there are gradations below that. Observational studies, are just observations after all.

But because I can say "there is 'no evidence' that there are no aliens" is then the lowest bar, it doesn't mean there 'are' aliens.

But the point here is that 'no evidence' is being used as a rhetorical technique to promote actually false findings.

Kind of along the lines of simply injecting doubt into a debate in order to detract from real evidence. Like what has been done for cigarettes, sugar, etc...

Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by kortilla on Monday January 08, 2024 @09:33AM (#38912442)
No, scientific publications don’t change it unless those publications are about the claim.

A publications doesn’t give you a free pass from scrutiny.

Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by remram on Monday January 08, 2024 @10:11AM (#38913026)
Publishing a claim doesn't make it the scientific truth. Case in point, the many thousands of published studies about ESP.
Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by CoastalCoder on Monday January 08, 2024 @10:27AM (#38913296)
What do you mean here by "scientific truth"?

Sorry to seem pedantic, but I think it matters here since we're talking about specific meanings of terms.

Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by remram on Monday January 08, 2024 @06:42PM (#38920152)
That is my point, yes. I am pointing out that there is no objective bar for a claim to be "scientific".
Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by throwitaway222 on Monday January 08, 2024 @10:25AM (#38913253)
Well it is scientific evidence, just weak. "1 person had their prize turnip abducted by aliens". Most people are waiting for 100 people to have their prize turnips to be abducted before they believe.
Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by hnfong on Monday January 08, 2024 @11:05AM (#38913970)
The problem with your argument is that there are already hundreds if not thousands of alien abduction reports.

(They probably didn't have turnips though, I hope that wasn't the point.)

The problem here isn't whether this is scientific evidence, but that the evidence isn't sufficient for scientists to form a reasonable hypothesis about what gives rise to the phenomenon (which could be (a) aliens are real, (b) some form of mass hallucination, (c) some form of synchronized fraudulent claim, (d) etc. etc. ).

I speculate that if somebody actually does a "literature review" of abduction reports they could pick out some signals to form some hypothesis, but presumably scientists have better things to risk their careers over.

Re:The Phrase "No Evidence" Is a Red Flag for Bad Science Co... by mrguyorama on Monday January 08, 2024 @01:14PM (#38915851)
But crazy carl saying his prize turnip was stolen by aliens ISN'T evidence that his prize turnip was stolen by aliens, it's evidence that crazy carl BELIEVES/SAYS his prize turnip was stolen by aliens.