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Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by madaxe_again on Friday January 05, 2024 @05:50PM (#38886138)
I think, particularly with the advent of AI and modern computer technology as a whole, Gödel would today be a simulationist of Bostrom’s cut.

If we ever have the means to accurately simulate reality - which we already do, at small scales and with significant time dilation - then it becomes almost inevitable that we reside within a simulation, as the simulations would vastly outnumber physical reality, and therefore the balance of probability is that we reside within a simulation - possibly nested within many other layers of simulation.

It isn’t necessary to simulate an entire universe at utter fidelity - just that which is observed - which rather neatly ties into the current understanding of quantum mechanics, and waveform collapse. It also isn’t necessary to do it in realtime, as from within the simulation all would appear synchronous regardless - aeons could pass between states, while the substrate orbits a white dwarf whiling away the cold eternity at the heat death of the parent universe.

Whether that implies an afterlife is another matter - perhaps we are ephemeral after all - but taking Gödel’s argument about the wastefulness of imbuing consciousness only to then snuff it out, half baked, it would stand to reason that any simulator would seek to accrue that experience, and use it for other purposes.

Perhaps there is only one consciousness, asynchronously living every life, every existence. I find this useful to bear in mind, as the person to whom I am asshole today may be an aspect of me from another iteration.

I prefer to look at this not as woo-woo, or belief, but rather logical deduction based on sound premises.

Of course, it may all be bunkum, and we may be alone in the universe, and life may indeed be meaningless and fleeting - but we cannot know, as that would foul up the simulation no end.

Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by skissane on Friday January 05, 2024 @06:26PM (#38886501)
> I think, particularly with the advent of AI and modern computer technology as a whole, Gödel would today be a simulationist of Bostrom’s cut

One of my favourite parts of Bostrom’s seminal paper is an aside, but one I feel would have appealed to Gödel had he lived to read it:

> Reality may thus contain many levels. Even if it is necessary for the hierarchy to bottom out at some stage – the metaphysical status of this claim is somewhat obscure

Bostrom’s argument, although it starts from materialist premises, contains within it an anti-materialist potential: What if there is no basement universe? What if it is software all the way down? Given Gödel’s anti-materialism, I think that potential would have appealed to him

Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by aliasxneo on Friday January 05, 2024 @06:39PM (#38886610)
> I prefer to look at this not as woo-woo, or belief, but rather logical deduction based on sound premises.

Are you saying that belief is woo-woo? Curious to understand how you're relating the two.

Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by madaxe_again on Friday January 05, 2024 @07:48PM (#38887099)
Yes. Belief is grounded in nothing - hence it is belief. One could believe in moon Nazis, or Bigfoot, or god - without a shred of evidence for any of them.

Knowledge is based upon rationale and testable hypotheses.

Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by aliasxneo on Friday January 05, 2024 @08:27PM (#38887365)
Maybe this is just semantics, but the statement, "I believe my wife loves me," would necessarily be grounded in nothing? Or is that not belief?
Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by madaxe_again on Saturday January 06, 2024 @03:37AM (#38889684)
That’s not belief. Either your wife loves you (good for you) or she does not (hooray for me). She’ll let you know, either way, so there’s no need for belief here.
Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by aliasxneo on Saturday January 06, 2024 @11:04AM (#38892519)
Interesting way to avoid the question. I guess we'll just have to disagree :)
Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by mensetmanusman on Friday January 05, 2024 @11:23PM (#38888400)
Belief that you exist, belief that free will exists, belief that others have consciousness, belief in human rights.
Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by madaxe_again on Saturday January 06, 2024 @03:36AM (#38889679)
I think, therefore I am.

Free will is entirely debatable.

In the same vein, the consciousness of others is also not certain, but I err on the side of caution.

I don’t “believe” in human rights, however they probably create a better living environment for all, therefore I would say they are a good thing.

Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by mensetmanusman on Sunday January 07, 2024 @08:28AM (#38901030)
Caution would assume others don't have free will.
Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by CooCooCaCha on Saturday January 06, 2024 @02:25PM (#38894472)
Free will is an illusion
Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by autio on Sunday January 07, 2024 @09:54PM (#38907707)
A bit of thinking through what freedom is and what will is will show the claim that free will is an illusion to be an illusion.
Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by CooCooCaCha on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @12:43PM (#38941070)
No. You are made of physics.

Your brain will act according to physics.

Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by mensetmanusman on Monday January 08, 2024 @11:55AM (#38914803)
It is for some, but not all.

Also, for whom is it an illusion? ;)

Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by CooCooCaCha on Wednesday January 10, 2024 @12:44PM (#38941074)
Everybody's brains act according to the laws of physics. The feeling that you have a choice is an illusion.
Re:Gödel believed in the afterlife. In 4 letters to his moth... by mensetmanusman on Thursday January 11, 2024 @05:39PM (#38960446)
Should I believe you or my lying eyes! :)