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Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by Groxx on Saturday December 30, 2023 @06:38PM (#38820395)
Low code with an escape hatch is quite nice, because yeah - many things can and probably should be low-code. It's a big productivity and standardization enhancer.

That escape hatch is absolutely necessary for longevity though. It lets you keep your low-code environment simple because you can leave it and write real code when necessary, rather than forcing everything into an over-complicated and under-capable custom thing with no editor tooling.

Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by addled on Saturday December 30, 2023 @08:18PM (#38820942)
Having escape hatches is critical, but they should also be well built, or it can cause just as much headache.

Example from us using Azure Data Factory: You can add a step to call out to an API, which we did for a data flow that had a lot of calls. Performance was atrocious. Dug into it, and the API getting called was replying in 100ms or so, but ADF's "escape hatch" was adding 5-10 seconds of overhead to send the POST and parse the HTTP status code.

Microsoft Support said that's normal, expected behavior for the service.

In the end, we had to write an additional batching layer ourselves.

Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by nnurmanov on Saturday December 30, 2023 @11:51PM (#38821900)
This ADF abbreviation remind me of another framework we used, it is Oracle ADF (application development framework) and it was awesome low-code tool! You can literally create CRUD with entry form within minutes, we Spring Boot and ReactJs it could take substantially longer. The good part of the tool is that the code is available and you can make any changes you want. In the enterprise they prefer time to market over beauty or UX, so it did its job perfectly.
Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by jwoq9118 on Sunday December 31, 2023 @03:06PM (#38827074)
In Microsoft land the best escape hatch is writing an Azure Function.
Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by mgl on Saturday December 30, 2023 @07:30PM (#38820678)
I really like your take on the escape hatch.

The success of low code implementations often comes with a curse of investing man-years of development effort to build increasingly complex applications in proprietary low code languages executable in a closed ecosystem (and commercial terms) of a specific vendor.

I believe there is a place for enterprise app platforms which are a) open source, b) not based on proprietary languages, c) with low code capabilities, fueled with AI code generation, d) runnable anywhere without staying dependent on typically user-based commercial model.

Shameless plus: we are working on such a thing, and competing with traditional low code platforms is not easy, I could tell a few stories about what we have tried, what works and what not really, if you are interested. I would be also extremely thankful for any comments and hints you may have, see https://openkoda.com

Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by bb88 on Sunday December 31, 2023 @04:19AM (#38822802)
> effort to build increasingly complex applications in proprietary low code languages executable in a closed ecosystem (and commercial terms) of a specific vendor.

That's the definition of vendor lock-in. Once the vendor has it's hooks in your organization, good luck removing it. Sometimes it's just the cost of doing business, but the more the hooks, the greater the chance that a vendor triples or quintuples the cost of their product that affects your organization's secret sauce.

I feel like the goal of low-code solutions is to get you over the barrel. Much in the same way AWS tries to get into your company's operating costs.

Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by vinibrito on Monday January 01, 2024 @04:38AM (#38830706)
I'd love to hear some of your stories about marketing it!

I create nocode plugins on a specific proprietary stalled platform, for a living, for a few years now, so I am definitely aware of the pitfalls in the area.

For me the problem is that the API to it got created in a nice format but then got abandoned, if they just listened over the years and added the changes we third party devs needed it would have been great.

Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by throwup238 on Saturday December 30, 2023 @07:22PM (#38820639)
Low-code tools have a market fit problem because of that escape hatch. The players keep trying to sell it as a solution to IT deficiencies but it should be sold as an IT empowerment tool. It really doesn't matter how good your last mile delivery is if the shipping container with the product isn’t where it’s supposed to be to begin with.

All the components and modules that low code tools provide should be nothing more than an onboarding tutorial like the first few levels of Factorio, before letting the engineering team loose hand in hand with the users. It shouldn’t be an escape hatch, it should be the front door.

As such all these low code tools make the mistake of making it really difficult to bring the engineering team into the fold: modularization, logging, debugging, version control, and development tools are absolute garbage so instead of engineering providing a few sane company specific building blocks that they can tend and nurture, it inevitably turns into a shitshow because you can’t use a tool that ultimately depends on the IT department to fix the IT department!

The best “low-code” tools have already been around for over a decade: it’s the headless CMS and autogenerated admin pages ala Django and Wagtail. They’ve been focused on solving the content management problem for e-commerce and marketing, but IMO it’s the write path for other groups too. The engineers write the pages and blocks and components while defining an input/configuration schema for an automated tool that is usable by laymen. Up the level of abstraction to a well curated (by the engineers at the customer level) IFTTT layer and bam, you’ve 95% of use of low code without the 5% that inevitably ruins it.

Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by TristanBall on Saturday December 30, 2023 @08:02PM (#38820854)
I totally agree on the "IT empowerment" perspective, but unfortunately the price model of these tools makes it hard for many IT departments to introduce them, at least in established corporate environments, for internal use. Startup and public facing stuff is different of course but my experience is medium enterprise internal IT..

Per end user rather than per developer means they're far too expensive to introduce as a general IT toolbox item, they need to be part of a major strategic project where the $5-30/month per staff user has a hope of being justified.

But that also often takes it outside the "IT Dept", which is often just "infrastructure and pc fleet" support, not development ( at least, that's my experience ). IT might do internal scripting and some service interface tooling, but business tooling and software is rarer, that's usually either dev teams or ERP teams. The ERP teams will already using ERP platform tooling, so that further narrows the market.

I don't have a good solution for this, but it's always been the hurdle I've tripped on working for medium size enterprises.

There would seem to be an opportunity for "open source platform, commercial training and support" here, but vendors seem to gravitate to per user head and cloud only for more immediate revenue and easier support., but again many enterprises still have huge internal only IT landscape's, because cloud is still expensive and the value often isn't seen in relatively static envs.

It's possible this niche has been filled now too, it's been a while since I looked...

Possibly they can be introduced on a "just those who need it" basis, but honestly that's just so bloody tiring for internal tools, not to mention demotivating as you can no longer build tools for "everyone or anyone", it's back to specific narrow business cases, not IT empowerment, but narrow business case also means your usually competing with cots tools or consultants.

Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by hitchstory on Sunday December 31, 2023 @06:47AM (#38823399)
The escape hatch is where most low code products fall down, I think. This is because of market fit as you correctly point out, but not only that.

It's also because knowing where the escape hatch and how to use it requires greater than average development skill and finesse and it isn't at all obvious when this is required.

The people who use these platforms aren't usually able to tell what kind of problem requires a developer and what kind of problem requires them doing just a bit more research. They're usually vaguely aware that the limit is out there somewhere but in the specific instances when they hit it they often don't know it's happened.

I've also seen some low code platforms get a little excitable about the idea of nearly or even fully reinventing the turing complete programming language to introduce more flexibility to their platform and make that their escape hatch. This is when things go really downhill.

Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by checkyoursudo on Monday January 01, 2024 @12:12PM (#38833342)
This reminds me of the deskilling problem, where operators whose tasks are automated away and end up being relegated to monitors and troubleshooters need to be even more knowledgeable and skilled to identify and resolve the ever-more obscure problems/edge cases that the automation cannot handle, but because the operators do not perform those tasks any longer, there is no reasonable way for them to maintain their advanced level of knowledge and skill. And the more automated the processed get, the greater the deskilling problem.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironies_of_Automation

Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by mdbauman on Saturday December 30, 2023 @07:20PM (#38820621)
Agreed, with the caveat that you also need a policy/culture that the escape hatch should be avoided whenever possible and the low-code work should not be done by developers.

Whenever I've discussed this, the common theme is that business users continue to request features that would be easily achieved in the low-code platform being used. It's hard to blame them; that's been standard procedure for them for their entire career.

But if you're not strict about saying "no", you still end up writing all the same methods but now on top of that you have a GUI that's not providing any value. Or maybe worse, your developers end up maintaining all of the low-code stuff too when they could have just written the code, switching context pointlessly and (probably, depending on the platform) not using source control.

Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by closeparen on Saturday December 30, 2023 @08:08PM (#38820888)
An interesting thing with developers getting involved in those boxes-and-arrows UI things is outages. I made a mistake with one once, and the postmortem quite reasonably asked:

* Where was the design doc?

* Where were the alerts?

* Where was the code review?

* Why didn't you write an integration test?

* What do you mean it just rolled out to production instantly?

When we're considering options in advance of building something, it's a more time-efficient, less wasteful alternative to programming. But having built it, everyone acknowledges that what we have done is programming, and now they wonder why we've programmed so badly.

Maybe the standard IDEs, Git, code review, CI, metrics, and incremental deploy workflows were fine actually?

Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by Towaway69 on Sunday December 31, 2023 @08:15AM (#38823829)
For me, none of the learnings is a direct result of using a low-code, arrow-boxes environment. I can deploy instantly to production using any programming environment, if I don't automatically have design documents when using a much-code environment.

Without discipline, any programming environment can lead to failures.

It is true that there aren't any well-defined workflows for using an arrow-boxes environments but that does not mean that these environments don't support specific workflows.

Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by closeparen on Sunday December 31, 2023 @11:54AM (#38825398)
Are these environments attractive because boxes and arrows are actually better than characters for expressing programs? Or are they attractive because they encourage you to skip steps that turn out to have been important? Sure, you can replicate a normal, responsible development process with a no-code tool, but at that point do you really have a compelling alternative to a more traditional programming environment?
Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by onion2k on Sunday December 31, 2023 @04:44AM (#38822900)
That escape hatch is absolutely necessary for longevity though.

I'd be really interested in knowing how often escape hatches like that are actually used. I'd guess it's less than a fraction of a percent, if ever.

Re:Why I'm skeptical of low-code by vinibrito on Monday January 01, 2024 @04:49AM (#38830753)
I develop plugins for a specific nocode proprietary platform, sixth year now doing it for a living, 95% of all apps use plugins, which are the custom code interface, the escape hatch. The ones that don't are very CRUDy apps with no remarkable features, like just some pretty design to input and show information.

And most apps use about 10 to 20 plugins.