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Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by briandear on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @03:26PM (#38786293)
If we’re worried about cost overruns, then perhaps cancel the California high speed rail boondoggle. That project could buy several nuclear reactors.
Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by danans on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @03:55PM (#38786642)
The difference is that there are many cheaper viable alternatives to the firm power that nuclear provides, including renewables+batteries ($60/MWh and dropping) and enhanced geothermal ($80/MWh and dropping). Heck, even natural gas combined-cycle + carbon capture/storage is cheaper on an LCOE basis (~$60/MWh) than nuclear ($180/MWh and rising) [1]. It would be great if nuclear could be cost competitive for equivalently firm power, but its costs are increasing, not decreasing.

In contrast, the only real alternative to air travel for high speed transportation between Northern and Southern CA is high speed rail. The "Hyperloop" has been exposed (charitably) as a failed concept, and personal vehicle travel (even electrified) is not an equivalent to HSR in a state as big as CA.

None of that is to say that the CA HSR project has been well planned/executed or that the costs have been well estimated. But that doesn't obviate the need for high speed ground transport in the state.

1. https://www.lazard.com/media/2ozoovyg/lazards-lcoeplus-april... (pages 2 and 31)

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by mpweiher on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @06:28PM (#38788156)
Oh good grief, not that Lazard "study" again.

They took the cost to build Vogtle, which is one of the most or even the most expensive outlier in terms of time/cost overruns of all time, and decided to make that the baseline for "the cost of nuclear power".

When the average time to build a nuclear reactor in the world has consistently been around 7.5 years. For the last 50 years, and also for the ones that came online in 2022, lest you think these were just the bygone good old days.

https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/nuclear-constructi...

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by adrianN on Thursday December 28, 2023 @07:07AM (#38792635)
Which new nuclear would you suggest instead? Hinkley C will cost about $160/MWh, right in the range given by Lazard.
Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by mpweiher on Thursday December 28, 2023 @07:24AM (#38792760)
I would suggest we look at overall stats instead of isolated examples.

Time to construct a nuclear plant takes on average 7.5 years, a number that hasn't really budged in the last 50 years.

https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/nuclear-constructi...

And since financing (i.e. interest) is the primary cost of nuclear (~50%), time is money.

Hinkley and Flamanville are examples of the EPR, a brand new reactor type that is both at the start of its learning curve, always problematic, and also apparently a design that is particularly difficult to build. And both Europe and the US haven't really built any nuclear plants for quite a long time, so the know-how to build them is just not there. Oh, and the regulators sometimes change regulations after parts of the plants have been built so they have to tear down what they have built and start again.

These are obviously all solvable problems, and mostly solvable by just building more. The problem is that we didn't build enough. Just build more.

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by adrianN on Thursday December 28, 2023 @07:56AM (#38793024)
Construction time is misleading. It takes a few days to a couple of weeks to build a wind turbine, but at least in Germany a wind turbine construction project takes more than five years.

So what better estimate would you suggest? What nuclear power plants where built in the last decade or so, for how much do they sell their power? How big will their decomissioning costs be per MWh?

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by mpweiher on Thursday December 28, 2023 @10:21AM (#38794243)
> Construction time is misleading.

Please support your claim.

We were talking about cost, and cost is directly proportional to construction time because financing (interest) is the primary cost of nuclear power plant construction.

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by adrianN on Thursday December 28, 2023 @10:37AM (#38794439)
It’sa lot harder to find investors for a project that takes 20+ years from planning to first income than for a project that takes seven and a half years.

I’m still waiting for better cost estimates than what Lazard gives.

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by mpweiher on Thursday December 28, 2023 @11:36AM (#38795217)
Simple:

Take the Vogtle-3 time, divide by average time to construct a nuclear reactor.

Apply factor to Lazard "estimate".

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by hef19898 on Thursday December 28, 2023 @12:17PM (#38795708)
If it is so simple, can you do that math for us?
Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by adrianN on Thursday December 28, 2023 @01:25PM (#38796665)
Even going by that ridiculously oversimplified calculation, and taking best-case numbers 0.75*$141 (10 years from first concrete poured to grid connection vs your 7.5 years average) is still barely competitive with worst-case Wind+Storage and more expensive than solar as Lazard estimates. And those are proven numbers from real projects not some pie in the sky guesstimates.
Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by mpweiher on Thursday December 28, 2023 @02:20PM (#38797373)
Your numbers don't add up.

Vogtle was only delayed by 25%, 2.5 years? I thought it was such a disaster and this proved nuclear doesn't work?

Now it's all good?

This says the delay was 7 years:

https://apnews.com/article/georgia-nuclear-power-plant-vogtl...

Oh, and the plant will still be cost effective, apparently, even with those delays.

Oh, and the solar numbers include sufficient batter storage? I saw something about 4h for half the capacity on some of the graphs. Most didn't explain at all.

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by adrianN on Thursday December 28, 2023 @11:17PM (#38801709)
As I said above, where you didn't believe me, construction times are misleading. First concrete poured was 2013. If you don't like the numbers, please suggest a better cost estimate. As it is, nuclear seems to be expensive.
Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by mpweiher on Friday December 29, 2023 @10:02AM (#38805656)
"LCOE of less than $30/MWhre for 40-60 years"

https://web.mit.edu/kshirvan/www/research/ANP193%20TR%20CANE...

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by natmaka on Thursday December 28, 2023 @10:12AM (#38794129)
Mean project cost over-runs: Nuclear power 120% Oil and gas 34% Mining 27% Fossil thermal power 16% Wind 13% Energy transmission 8% Solar 1%

https://www.enr.com/articles/55774-oxford-professors-latest-...

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by solarpunk on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @03:32PM (#38786367)
Probably best to diversify infrastructure investment across... multiple projects.
Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by api on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @03:32PM (#38786360)
I have a very strong impression that the perpetual money pits of California (rail, the amount spent on homelessness without progress, etc.) aren’t bugs but features… for someone. That money is going into someone’s pocket.
Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by zbrozek on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @03:44PM (#38786522)
Our electeds simply don't care what anything costs, and as a result we have (probably) the worst cost disease on the planet.
Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @04:20PM (#38786891)
> electeds simply don't care what anything costs

California has a referendum system. That so few referendums focus on cutting costs says something about its voters’ priorities.

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by zbrozek on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @05:22PM (#38787529)
Sure does! That's why I used "electeds" rather than "representatives", to make really clear the connection.

On the other hand, the state is losing population on an absolute basis (and relatively even more so against a backdrop of national growth). So some folks are voting with their feet. I'm eagerly awaiting the day when I'm free enough to do the same.

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by JumpCrisscross on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @05:40PM (#38787725)
> why I used "electeds" rather than "representatives", to make really clear the connection

I’m arguing the opposite. The voters have the tools to oppose the state government’s size. That they don’t use them signals support in broad terms.

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by aspenmayer on Thursday December 28, 2023 @05:54AM (#38792156)
I’d agree with you with the caveat that such public support is mediated by regulatory capture on all sides and from all quarters: outside the government by industry and lobbyists, within the government by elected officials, and adjacent to/despite the government by a public apathetic to such issues and/or voting against its own shared/collective interests in favor of individual interests. Participation in local and state politics even in California is not common beyond voting, which is a low bar to clear. Much of media messaging in the area of referendums is focused on niche issues and special interests, and serves to highlight and promote those issues to convert NIMBYs to YIMBYs or vice-versa on those specific narrow issues. Agreement in broad terms like you mention is hard to achieve due to the difficulty in drafting referendum legislation texts such that they will withstand a challenge by the state attorney general as well as state Supreme Court, as well as having the resulting referendum achieve enough signatures to make it on the ballot and have enough recognition and support by voters to actually pass and become law.

One key difference that I do like about the CA referendum process is that laws passed by referendum in California are equal to the state constitution and require 2/3 supermajority in state congress to modify or change, just like the state constitution itself. This avoids many attempts by legislature to foil or spoil the will of the voters’ referendums, in contrast to other state referendum processes which are only considered a law passed by other means and are usually able to be modified by simple majority.

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by icelancer on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @03:36PM (#38786429)
As usual it's some from Column A and B. Hard to tell sometimes what is graft and what is incompetence.
Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by s1artibartfast on Wednesday December 27, 2023 @04:04PM (#38786719)
A little of A, B, and C.

A) Idealistic voters with little interest in detail or executions.

B) Hard working state employees executing in an ineffective way because they are working on over constrained problems with conflicting and sometime impossible goals.

C) A number of opportunists that take advantage of poor rulemaking and bureaucratic disorganization.

For what it is worth, I dont think corruption is a major driver of problems, but bad policy detached from the practical considerations.

One simple example is SF parks maintenance:

The city wants to keep invasive species out, so it has staff to remove them. The city also believes in livable wages, so the workers make >100K. Residents dont like pesticides, so the workers must hand weed. Hand weeding doesnt work, so the City periodically pays outside consultants to come in and take care of the invasives (with pesticides and low paid workers).

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by mlrtime on Thursday December 28, 2023 @09:01AM (#38793543)
>The city wants to keep invasive species out...

These small examples are extremely frustrating as a tax payer. What is the solution to these examples, or does one just try to ignore it as a price of living in that society?

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by s1artibartfast on Thursday December 28, 2023 @02:38PM (#38797595)
Frustrating indeed. I don't think there is a quick fix to create a political culture among voters and representatives that cares about fiscal responsibility.

One consideration is having a broader tax base so that voters have more skin in the game.

For example, taxes in Houston are less progressive than SF, but SF city budget per resident is more than 500% that of Huston.

Re:First new U.S. nuclear reactor since 2016 is now in opera... by zbrozek on Friday December 29, 2023 @07:49AM (#38804327)
How do we get to a more decisive government that doesn't try to make everything a priority (especially things that are at odds with each other)? Is it to reduce direct participation and rely on representation (remove public hearings)?

The $1.7M public toilet was a painful example showing how far off the rails we are. Should auditors and controllers have some teeth? What would they be?