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Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by softfalcon on Sunday December 24, 2023 @04:58PM (#38757326)
Yeah, I feel like people forget about that whole British Imperialism thing too easily.

We all speak English because at one point the English practically owned the entire planet.

Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by 8372049 on Sunday December 24, 2023 @07:11PM (#38758324)
That's not universally true. In my country, German was the widely accepted and taught second language until WW2. Since then it's been English.
Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by actionfromafar on Sunday December 24, 2023 @07:26PM (#38758412)
Well one empire (sort of empire) defeated another, so it’s related.
Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by 8372049 on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:05PM (#38759283)
The reason German(y) was widely unpopular after WW2 wasn't primarily because they lost.

ETA: They lost WW1 too, but German remained our #1 foreign language.

Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by dragonwriter on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:07PM (#38759292)
OTOH, the reason those feelings were free to be expressed...
Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by 8372049 on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:47PM (#38759520)
Yeah, we would all be speaking German now if they had won. But to put it another way, German remained the second language after they lost WW1.
Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by Hunpeter on Tuesday December 26, 2023 @01:34PM (#38774499)
>we would all be speaking German >now if they had won I hope you're saying this as a joke/deliberate hyperbole.
Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by Aicy on Sunday December 24, 2023 @08:50PM (#38758849)
The relative power of German speakers (Germany) dropped massively after WW2 compared to English speakers (USA).
Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by OJFord on Sunday December 24, 2023 @09:28PM (#38759091)
How is that not essentially the same point? The second language was determined by international politics, not linguistic merit.
Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by 8372049 on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:54PM (#38759557)
Depends on your level of abstraction, I guess. GP stated "We all speak English because at one point the English practically owned the entire planet."

Which in our case is false. We stopped learning German as a second language because of the Nazi aggression and atrocities during WW2, and started learning English as a second language due to their aid and closer relations during the war.

But yes, it's obviously not because of any linguistic merit.

Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by throwaway2037 on Sunday December 24, 2023 @09:41PM (#38759178)
It would help if we knew which country. Was this due to (1) pre-WW2 German language mostly useful for trade with Germany, or (2) a significant minority of ethnic Germans, who probably returned to Germany (E/W) after WW2? My guess: #2.
Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by 8372049 on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:45PM (#38759509)
Norway. Just overall friendlier standing with Germany than the UK pre-WW2 I think.

No significant minority of ethnic Germans, and I think trade with Germany and the UK was roughly comparable.

Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by rblatz on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:25PM (#38759400)
That’s true of many countries, including The US.
Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by peyton on Sunday December 24, 2023 @05:47PM (#38757780)
The competition was very aggressive, escalating into several Anglo-Dutch wars. The VOC absolutely outcompeted the EIC most of the time. How do you explain the staying power of English given that “imperialism” is the more appropriate context, not “British Imperialism”?
Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by dragonwriter on Sunday December 24, 2023 @06:03PM (#38757893)
Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by Aicy on Sunday December 24, 2023 @08:56PM (#38758899)
The Dutch and Portuguese outcompeted the British, until they didn't.

In the 19th and early 20th century the British owned the seas, a post 1945 another English speaking country has - the United States.

Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by F3nd0 on Sunday December 24, 2023 @06:16PM (#38757987)
Compare English with Esperanto, which, in spite of being much easier to learn than English, still hasn't become anywhere near as widespread (at least in terms of number of speakers).

Ironically the one biggest thing which presents an ideological advantage for Esperanto is that it's native to no nation, so all the people who speak it are closer to being equals in that regard; yet it is the imperialism and a large number of native speakers which has helped to make English so prevalent. So just being technically and morally superior doesn't win you adoption by a long shot, even if you try.

And it may be of note for this post that the original author of Esperanto was very conscious of this whole formal/informal issue, which is why he opted to introduce only the plural second person pronoun into practice.

Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by rep_lodsb on Sunday December 24, 2023 @07:28PM (#38758428)
Esperanto may not be native to any nation, but as far as I'm aware, it's heavily influenced by Latin and various European languages.

Not saying that this is it's main problem, and other constructed languages like Lojban are probably even less relevant despite trying to be more "culturally neutral".

Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by F3nd0 on Monday December 25, 2023 @12:03AM (#38759983)
Yes, you are entirely correct. Making a language that’s fully ‘culturally neutral’ is likely impossible, but even so, Esperanto could have done much better in this regard (and as far as I know, some other constructed languages do much better in this regard).

Even then, it's a very big jump from ‘people in some countries already know this and don’t need to learn at all’ to ‘people in some countries will have an easier time learning since they’ll recognise a lot of the words’; making this jump would already be a great improvement upon the status quo. Out of the languages which make the jump, Esperanto is by far the most widely spoken and otherwise used in practice.

Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by batch12 on Sunday December 24, 2023 @07:26PM (#38758410)
English is neither morally superior nor morally inferior to Esperanto.
Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by F3nd0 on Sunday December 24, 2023 @11:45PM (#38759886)
In general? No, of course not; I feel that would be an absurd claim to make.

But as an international language? I think having everyone learn something that is comparatively easy to learn is certainly more fair than having most people learn something that is comparatively hard to learn and understood by others from the get-go, thereby giving the latter an unfair advantage. And I feel that being more fair in this regard is indeed morally superior.

(Then again, that might just boil down to one's own idea of morality. But I feel like this one shouldn't be all too uncommon, and the claim is entirely reasonable in its terms.)

Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by nitwit005 on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:16PM (#38759346)
It is a bit more complex than that. My father (American) learned German because his mother considered it "the language of science". That attitude is mostly gone.
Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by skissane on Sunday December 24, 2023 @10:57PM (#38759574)
> It is a bit more complex than that. My father (American) learned German because his mother considered it "the language of science". That attitude is mostly gone.

When my dad did his chemistry degrees (a bachelors and a masters by research) in the late 1960s / early 1970s (Australia), they made him do a unit on how to read German, because that is the language of a lot of the older chemistry literature. I don’t think they care anywhere near as much about German in chemistry nowadays, although (from what I understand) learning to read German is still an expectation for some humanities PhDs (such as Egyptology)

Re:Did English ever have a formal version of "you"? (2011) by sib on Monday December 25, 2023 @12:56PM (#38764585)
When I studied computer science (which, at my university in the United States was still a part of the mathematics faculty), we were required to study one of German, French, or Russian, as those were historical languages of math.

Seems a bit quaint now - but at least it got me to learn German and even spend six months studying at the University of Heidelberg.