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Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by uvdiv on Saturday April 21, 2012 @12:07PM (#3872114)
Let's built a future with 300mph self-driving supercars and mach 20 spaceplanes -- addressing the actual desires and wants of most users (mobility, convenience) rather than imposing personal ethics of asceticism (mass transit, anti-urbanization). The author brings up a lot of valid problems with contemporary car travel (and notably none of its revolutionary advantages), but most of these orthogonal to the personal-vs.-mass transport issue he argues, e.g.

* Health dangers from emissions -- an issue of (certain implementations of) internal combustion, not the form factor of the vehicle: personal auto vs. bus or train

* Health dangers/obnoxiousness of long commutes -- likewise, a complicated thing which doesn't immediately suggest "ban cars" as the obvious solution. (If anything -- everything else being the same -- self-driving supercars should result in the shortest commutes: point-to-point (last mile), no waiting, no traffic congestion (from AI)

* Infrastructure NIMBY (roads, sprawling parking lots): rail lines have the same issues, with the tradeoff that the sparser your mass transit ugliness is, the more excruciating inconvenience the last-mile segment of a commute is (try living 10m walk from a subway stop). Flying "cars" are almost certainly infinitely worse, because of their extreme noise

None of these are arguments against private transport; they are arguments against specific implementations of private transport, and don't at all imply the conclusions the author derives.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by api on Saturday April 21, 2012 @12:14PM (#3872126)
I like high speed trains myself. They can run off the power grid, which means they can run off wind/solar/nuclear/hydro, and they are actually in some ways more convenient than cars.

When I lived in a big city, I enjoyed train commuting. I could just get on the train and not think about it. I used to hate daily commuting by car. Now that I live in a smaller town, I picked a walkable one where I can walk to work. (Yeah, not everyone can do that.)

I do like cars for vacationing. I consider a car a recreational vehicle, but can't stand them for routine commuting.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by fennecfoxen on Saturday April 21, 2012 @01:09PM (#3872260)
I like trains and commuting by train too. I can't stand traffic either.

But cars remain awesomely effective, because they can go from point to point, and they're so competitive that trains are only really competitive if: * you're going to be traveling for very long distances (but not long enough for airports to be faster), or * traffic is going to be utterly miserable, or * the train is RIGHT THERE and very convenient or, ideally, some combination of the three. (Driving to the commuter rail and having your office be Right There is an acceptable incarnation of point three).

Notice where trains are most effective: the northeast corridor (really dense population, traffic problems, city centers with workplaces served by train/metro), big cities on the west coast (e.g. SF, Seattle).

There are significant diseconomies involved in making a big dense city. "A future without cars" looks like some of those cities and those city's problems - in particular, really expensive housing, especially if you want to raise a family and have multiple bedrooms (or, God forbid, a yard). Remember that median household income in the US is only $44k. If you're reading Hacker News I'll guesstimate you're probably making double that, maybe triple.

Anyway. Gas prices and the relative prices of train commuting/car commuting/real estate may change the dynamic of transportation in the future, but I don't think the densification that it entails is an unabashed good for the common man or that my preference for trains is a substitute for comprehensive realistic transportation policies. And if we must go down that road (so to speak) we're going to need to do a better job of making effective, useful, cost-efficient transportation projects than we have over the past few years.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by DanI-S on Saturday April 21, 2012 @01:38PM (#3872338)
Knowing that the median household income in the US is $44k, I am continually shocked at the amount of money spent on cars.

"Slightly less than one-third of households said they had one personal vehicle1 available for use in 2001. A little more than one-third of households (40 million out of 107 million households) had 2 vehicles and slightly less than one-quarter had 3 or more vehicles available."[0]

This is an unimaginable number of cars. Given that a car costs, on average, $28,400[1] - and lasts around 8 years[2] - holy shit.

That doesn't even take into account the cost of running and fueling a car. At an average of ~15k miles per year, the total cost PER CAR is around $8,776 per year.[3] To our 'median household', which is more likely than not to have one or two cars, that's either 20% or 40% of their income. Since average spending on housing is 30%, that doesn't leave a whole lot left. No wonder we're all in so much debt.

The worst part is, US urban planning means that people are likely unable to work without access to a car.

Imagine a 20% increase in income tax, with the money being used to subsidize an outdated and damaging industry. That's what this is. It is holding back the US economy.

[0]http://www.bts.gov/publications/transportation_statistics_an... [1]http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/autos/aut11.shtm [2]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12040753/ns/business-consumer_ne... [3]http://www.boston.com/cars/newsandreviews/overdrive/2011/04/...

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by hammock on Saturday April 21, 2012 @03:24PM (#3872729)
"Buy a car to get to work, go to work to pay for car" is something that I'd bet a lot of people are familiar with. Suburban sprawl and the middle class.
Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by emmelaich on Saturday April 21, 2012 @08:41PM (#3873497)
I am amazed at the amount people spend no cars but again be wary of the thought that this inherent to cars. It's about culture and keeping up with the Joneses. My 15 year old 4 cylinder car costs not a lot to run and takes me everywhere. You can prise out of my cold dead hands :-)
Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by waqf on Saturday April 21, 2012 @11:08PM (#3873777)
4 cylinders isn't the norm any more? I knew I didn't stay up to date with the automotive world, but blimey.
Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by jacquesm on Sunday April 22, 2012 @07:52AM (#3874624)
Europe has been flooded in recent times with three cylinder cars, the Citroen C1, Toyota Aygo and Peugeot 107, VW Polo, Seat and a whole slew of others.

By American standards these are tiny but for EU commuting / shopping / city driving they're fine.

Fiat even has a two cylinder car on the market.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by exue on Saturday April 21, 2012 @02:18PM (#3872480)
So you just choose one industry that's 20% of the economy to demolish and expect no side effects?

Get rid of the car industry, and the flying jetpack, massive underground subway, or whatever industry will come in to fill the gap. Economics isn't that simple.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by yummyfajitas on Saturday April 21, 2012 @01:42PM (#3872357)
"A future without cars" looks like some of those cities and those city's problems - in particular, really expensive housing...

NYC would be a lot cheaper if you could buy up some old brownstones, give the tenants end of lease + 6 months to find a new place, tear them down and build an apartment building. It would be very simple to fit a lot more people on manhattan if we just built taller buildings.

It's politics that makes dense cities expensive, not something intrinsic to the cities themselves.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by jseliger on Saturday April 21, 2012 @01:45PM (#3872365)
If you're curious about this stuff, see Edward Glaeser's The Triumph of the City, Matt Yglesias's The Rent is Too Damn High, and Ryan Avent's The Gated City, all of which discuss contemporary urban life and how restrictions on building height lead to suburban sprawl. In particular, based on their readings, I'm not sure this is true: "There are significant diseconomies involved in making a big dense city." Some parts of cities scale sub-linearly and others don't; see here: http://www.creativeclass.com/_v3/creative_class/2007/05/26/c...:

Quantities related to a city’s infrastructure, such as the number of gas stations and the length of paved roads, did scale "sublinearly", meaning that the larger the city, the less of these were required per capita. But measures of economic output and innovation – the number of patents, total wages, GDP, even the pace of walking – scaled "superlinearly", showing increasing returns with size (see Graphs). "The scaling laws say that on average, as a city grows you can predict its output and input, its energy consumption, its wealth creation, its level of crime," says Bettencourt.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by Retric on Saturday April 21, 2012 @01:14PM (#3872280)
The real problem with cars is they directly kill 100's of thousand people and people waste 100's thousand lifetimes worth of mindlessly driving them around EVERY single year world wide. They also cost of resources and environmental costs to build, fuel, maintain, and create roads, but so do all their replacements. We can have different trade-offs when it comes to those costs but massive transportation networks are always going to be expensive.

I have always thought the future would have personalized self driving subway cars. But, it's all about what you value.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by rayiner on Saturday April 21, 2012 @03:44PM (#3872789)
I don't see the anti-car position as asceticism. Rather, I see it as a recognition of the basic fact that peoples' expressed preferences are hard to separate from government policy in this particular domain.

The current state of affairs is not an expression of how people really want to live. It's an expression of the enormous subsidies we have given to a particular lifestyle. Our governments fund suburban schools much better than urban ones. They spend enormous amount of money on constant road construction and barely spend anything improving public transit. We allow the huge costs incurred by fossil fuel use to be externalized, making car use seem much cheaper than it actually is. We penalize renters and subsidize home owners by allowing tax deductions for mortgage interest. Police spend large amounts of money, on a per capita basis, enforcing uniquely suburban concerns like drunk driving, compared to how much is spent on run of the mill urban crime fighting.

It is almost certain that without these massive explicit and implicit subsidies, peoples' expressed "desires and wants" would look very different than what we have now.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by nickpinkston on Saturday April 21, 2012 @01:01PM (#3872239)
Yes, I came in here to comment of this. Let's cure the ills of a device that is massively useful. Sure - cities should look more like NYC and less like Houston - I'll give the car haters that, but I'm with uvdiv, that I'd far prefer fast, clean versions that drove themselves.

The great part of high-speed rail, etc. is that you can relax while they do the driving and you arrive close to your destination. However, driverless cars give you the best of both of those worlds, and other than wind-resistance (which drafting largely solves) you have similar efficiency.

PS - Does anyone find "driverless car" to be the 21st century equivalent of "horseless carriage"?

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by ken on Saturday April 21, 2012 @04:36PM (#3872931)
Maybe I'm the one crazy luddite on HN (would not surprise me at all!), but I don't look forward to self-driving 300mph cars. The idea of trusting a computer system to keep me safe on open roads, in close proximity to other computer-controlled cars, sounds terrifying, not relaxing.

Yes, I love high-speed trains, because they're on a track, and while this obviously does not guarantee safety, it certainly makes it feel much safer to me.

Compare to air travel. Even with the meticulous maintenance and regulatory requirements, a significant fraction of the population is scared of flying (to some degree). Driverless cars are better in one aspect (operates at ground level), worse in others (proximity to other vehicles), just different in some ways (computer versus human pilot), and complete unknowns, so far, in others (regulation).

Even if the actual crash/injury/fatality rate of driverless cars is nil, how do you design a 300mph computer-controlled car to not be scary for passengers? I want it to work, as I recognize the advantages, but it seems like the social problems will be even tougher than the technical problems, and I'm definitely not going to be an early adopter.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by fiddly_bits on Saturday April 21, 2012 @07:02PM (#3873268)
Must be perspective. I, for instance, think we should all be terrified to share the road with scores, hundreds, or even thousands of multi-ton mechanical devices traveling anywhere from 25 to 70 mph which are operated by people, easily-distracted, endlessly fallible, and often foolishly reckless people. Computer-controlled sounds better/safer to me.
Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by tommi on Saturday April 21, 2012 @06:35PM (#3873211)
You do realize that a 300mph car is unfeasible due to drag? And that the close proximity is more of an issue with humans because of the inability to realize how much distance you actually need to react safely?
Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by mortenjorck on Saturday April 21, 2012 @03:27PM (#3872740)
PS - Does anyone find "driverless car" to be the 21st century equivalent of "horseless carriage"?

The best words I've read all week.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by m0nty on Saturday April 21, 2012 @12:21PM (#3872144)
> "ban cars"

I must have missed the bit where he said that. I thought he was saying that we could find better solutions.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by emmelaich on Saturday April 21, 2012 @08:44PM (#3873506)
Then the article would be better titled a future that "doesn't need cars" than one "without cars".
Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by m0nty on Sunday April 22, 2012 @05:51AM (#3874435)
I got further than just reading the title as well.
Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by virmundi on Saturday April 21, 2012 @10:07PM (#3873676)
I agree with you. One thing that I have a problem with making everyone move to public transit is my IBS. I loath driving the way it is because of that, but I can at least pull over to a McDonald's or a gas station. It would be horrific to have to hold it on even the cleanest, fastest bus.

I don't even drive non-family member to a local lunch because of my problem. So I really would be a shut in if I had to go places by bus.

On the plus side, there could be a new client for an eco-friendly home food delivery service if they moved to such a system.

Re:Let’s Build a Future Without Cars by waqf on Saturday April 21, 2012 @11:14PM (#3873789)
If we're imagining clean, fast buses, I don't see why they shouldn't come equipped with toilets of at least McDonald's quality.