News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by bradley13 on Friday December 15, 2023 @08:32AM (#38653991)
Your comment about filters is important. These companies are so worried that someone will generate "evil" results that they disable whole swaths of potential queries.

All sorts of different people may genuinely need those results: Attorneys, doctors and nurses, law enforcement, private investigators. Individuals searching for advice. Doing background checks on other people. Heck, just high school students researching a topic.

I'm not sure what to do about the (legitimate) concerns of the AI providers. They don't want a shitstorm, because someone got their AI model to [whatever]. But [whatever] can genuinely be important.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by rurp on Friday December 15, 2023 @12:25PM (#38656304)
I have a lot of concerns about how effective LLMs could be leveraged by powerful corporations to the detriment of society. But seeing the ham fisted approach most are taking to filtering/safety/etc has actually lowered my concern a fair amount. Even an AI that could be incredibly powerful will likely end up seriously hamstrung by these policies for the foreseeable future, greatly limiting how much damage it can do in practice.
Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by ratg13 on Friday December 15, 2023 @01:41PM (#38657132)
Unless you are a government.
Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by paul80808 on Saturday December 16, 2023 @05:26AM (#38663204)
Maybe. But it seems unlikely - are you confident that the filtering were using on weak AI would also work on strong AI? I'm not...
Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by pdntspa on Friday December 15, 2023 @12:14PM (#38656165)
Censorship is ALWAYS evil
Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by _factor on Friday December 15, 2023 @12:46PM (#38656558)
Maybe, but necessary in certain situations. Abusive or misleading content (definition up for debate) can be censored to prevent harm. If I have a blueprint for a homemade explosive that a 12 year old can make in a day, should that be easily accessible?

Censorship only exists because people are more lazy than they are nefarious. The other aspect is protecting idiots from themselves.

Whether that’s right or wrong, I’m not the judge.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by sirsinsalot on Friday December 15, 2023 @01:40PM (#38657120)
Yes let that 12 year old have the instructions.

Maybe as a society we then will have to have the conversations about cause/effect and personal responsibility that prepare children for adulthood.

When I was 9 my brother gave me a disc with all sorts of hacking and explosive making material. Jolly Rodger cookbook, handbooks on counterintel, hacking books about overflows.

I had great fun making thermite and smoke bombs and it led me to my career in software.

None of it was any more dangerous than climbing a tree because of good parenting.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by _factor on Friday December 15, 2023 @02:21PM (#38657647)
In the majority of cases you maybe correct. But there are 12yr olds out there that don’t share your motives for building an explosive.

Personal responsibility is great when it works with proper parenting. You’re going to have to deal with the real world when schools around America start blowing up to match the ideal.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by pdntspa on Friday December 15, 2023 @01:53PM (#38657269)
The nazis made similar excuses for their book burnings

Conservative religious nutjobs say the same shit when trying to ban books from libraries.

Everybody wants to ban the things they don't like, because most of us are weak-ass neophobes that bristle at the idea of thought that subverts these precious little needs. This is the whole problem.

We live in a diverse world. Stop coddling minds.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by mordae on Friday December 15, 2023 @12:50PM (#38656601)
> Abusive or misleading content (definition up for debate) can be censored to prevent harm.

Sure.

> If I have a blueprint for a homemade explosive that a 12 year old can make in a day, should that be easily accessible?

Yes.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by wredue on Friday December 15, 2023 @09:25AM (#38654478)
They’re not “worried about it”.

When filters are removed, one of the first things people do to the bots is make them racists. Time and time again. It happens every time.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by Frivolous9421 on Friday December 15, 2023 @09:54AM (#38654753)
And why is my computer not allowed to be racist if I instruct it to be racist?
Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by bigfudge on Friday December 15, 2023 @10:06AM (#38654864)
If you want to make it racist buy your own array of a100s and start training.

Microsoft and others don’t want to facilitate that. I think it’s a reasonable concern. From a public policy perspective having millions of people who can instantly produce reams of racist abuse to swamp online fora is a problem, even if you believe in free speech. It potentially changes the power dynamic in favour of a racist minority to dominate public discourse.

Social proof and social learning have powerful effects on behaviour. LLMs are great, but used at scale they will have downsides too.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by rapind on Friday December 15, 2023 @11:15AM (#38655581)
> having millions of people who can instantly produce reams of racist abuse to swamp online fora is a problem, even if you believe in free speech. It potentially changes the power dynamic in favour of a racist minority to dominate public discourse.

I kinda think when (not if) this happens it's going to be quickly drowned in all sorts of other AI generated garbage. In fact, we will probably render internet news useless pretty sure without a proper trust / source identification system.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by volkk on Friday December 15, 2023 @11:23AM (#38655643)
> we will probably render internet news useless pretty sure without a proper trust / source identification system.

I really think this will be the ultimate use case of blockchain tech/crypto.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by wredue on Friday December 15, 2023 @01:52PM (#38657259)
The racists don’t usually post outright racist stuff anymore (unless you go looking for forums that enable such a thing). It doesn’t work, even with bots.

You nearly always just see dog whistles, whataboutism, “Just Asking Questions”, “I’m not a racist but…”, fake stats, “racism is free speech”, etc. in fact, there’s quite a lot of that in this very section.

The question really is not “why does the model prevent sensitive topics”. The question is “why does hacker news get suddenly flooded with people who are ‘concerned’ about letting models be racist every single time models are discussed?”

I would suggest to you that there’s already loads of bots here.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by AJ007 on Friday December 15, 2023 @11:02AM (#38655421)
You don't need a bunch of a100s. The models you can download and run locally on a consumer GPU or Apple Silicon will say whatever you tell them to. You won't be getting GPT-4 level output (with some exceptions), but it's close.
Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by nick__m on Friday December 15, 2023 @12:08PM (#38656116)
yeah, and while I have no experience with racist drivel, I am pretty sure that you don't need GPT4 to output text like : Fucking X they are comming to steal our jobs.
Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by wredue on Friday December 15, 2023 @12:53PM (#38656641)
You can download any number of models that will be freely racist for you.

Queries powered by Microsoft servers will be filtered.

Similarly, businesses are free to create their downloadable models however they so choose, and you are free to not use that model, preferring another one instead.

Frankly, it says a lot about the commenters here that the very first thing they test and judge a model on is whether or not they can force models to perform sensitive results.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by boredumb on Friday December 15, 2023 @11:22AM (#38655641)
So races with genetic predispositions to diseases should suffer because we trained it on socially kosher data to appease adults who are theoretically offended about being exposed to bad words on the internet? Victims should suffer because specifying a description of perpetrators are reported and identified partly based on race? Legal teams must act like youtube commentators and come up with filter escaping euphemisms when referencing their clients violent/sexual crimes deemed to evil for adults to be exposed to.
Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by freedomben on Friday December 15, 2023 @09:41AM (#38654631)
Indeed people will, but why do we blame the bot-maker instead of blaming the person doing the prompting?
Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by netrus on Friday December 15, 2023 @10:47AM (#38655274)
Because correctly assigning blame does not solve any issue caused by the racism?
Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by freedomben on Friday December 15, 2023 @03:00PM (#38658116)
That's a fair point, but where does it stop? There are some classic real-world examples, but they're pretty hot areas so I'll make up a contrived example.

What about pen companies? If somebody buys a Bic pen and writes a racist or hate-speech filled letter to somebody, should Bic be required to design a pen that censors or restricts hate speech? What's the underlying principle behind expecting a company to re-engineer their product to prevent any misuse?

I think most people agree that basic safety rails are desirable, such as child-resistant lids on medicine bottles, or guards on razor blades, but who's opinion is most relevant when it comes to where to draw the line?

A real-world case might be Plex. How much responsiblity does Plex have to ensure that users aren't using it to self-host pirated material? or CSAM? With engineering effort they could pretty easily collect data on everything everybody is watching, including fingerprinting and stuff. Should they be expected or required to do that?

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by bradley13 on Friday December 15, 2023 @10:58AM (#38655386)
> When filters are removed, one of the first things people do to the bots is make them racists

So what? Seriously, so what?

Look, you can open Word on your system and type all sorts of racist stuff. Should Word auto-detect that (maybe with the help of AI) and refuse to accept your input? I don't think many people would find that to be a good idea.

Another point: Individual users don't affect the knowledge base. LLMs are not like Tay, dynamically integrating user input. An LLM like ChatGPT may adapt within a particular conversation, but that affects literally no one but you.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by numinos1 on Friday December 15, 2023 @12:30PM (#38656368)
We're already half way there. Google Docs now utilizes an "assistive writing" AI that displays warnings for words or phrases that are considered "non-inclusive".
Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by bradley13 on Friday December 15, 2023 @12:41PM (#38656511)
> Google Docs now utilizes an "assistive writing" AI that displays warnings for words or phrases that are considered "non-inclusive".

I didn't want to know that. I did not want to know that.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by boredumb on Friday December 15, 2023 @11:24AM (#38655658)
> Should Word auto-detect that (maybe with the help of AI) and refuse to accept your input?

You jest but please don't give any Microsoft employees gleaning this thread any great ideas to show off in their next product meeting.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by Mountain_Skies on Friday December 15, 2023 @09:39AM (#38654609)
There are many examples of people testing LLMs on which is worse, extinguishing all of humanity or making a racist comment in a place where no one will hear it. The LLMs keep choosing to extinguish humanity. Just something to consider when using "but it could say something racist" as justification for filtering. Is racism so evil that it's better to kill every human to avoid it ever happening? Maybe the only option in that case is to prohibit the existence of LLMs. We already have corporations in the role of powerful sociopaths preying on society, do we need LLMs looking to kill us all to satisfy its goals too?
Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by NoraCodes on Friday December 15, 2023 @09:46AM (#38654678)
> Is racism so evil that it's better to kill every human to avoid it ever happening?

The companies that make and operate these systems - like most companies - are more interested in avoiding PR problems than avoiding harm to humans. This is just one somewhat humorous example of that general policy.

Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by jxdxbx on Friday December 15, 2023 @10:38AM (#38655181)
Ok, if some insane contrived hypothetical one day comes to life, we had better avoid going to chatbots for advice.
Re:First look at Microsoft 365 Copilot by burningChrome on Friday December 15, 2023 @02:09PM (#38657481)
The interesting part is that as soon as ChatGPT came out and people realized it was filtering out or just refusing to answer questions, hackers got to work and got around the restrictions. Its not hard to find queries on how to dupe AI in order to give you nefarious responses like how to code up a ransomware script or how to code up a virus to create a DDoS bot army.

I remember reading books about the history of computer hacking and they started with stories of the phreakers and people who believed that all information should be free regardless of what humanity did with it. They always had stories about how they would pick the locks on the doors the labs that held the earliest computers. When staff found out and changed the locks, they simply scoffed and learned how to pick those locks instead. It wasn't until the school threatened them with expulsion did they finally relent.

In this day and age, as soon as you start putting up fencing around something, there's scores of people who just as anxious to find a way around it.