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Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by docdeek on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @12:08PM (#38630401)
The award of the contract for the outdoor advertising space (bus shelters, roadside space) in my city was tied to providing and maintaining a cheap metro-area wide bike sharing scheme. For 30ish euros a year I get unlimited 45 minute trips on bikes that are widely available, well maintained, and easy to use. In 2022 there were more than 10 million trips taken on these hire bikes and nearly 84,000 annual subscribers.

This bike share scheme is only possible because the city traded away its outdoor ad space. There's not more ads, just a monopoly on who sells the space to advertisers. The city might be prettier without the advertisements but it seems a good trade off to be removing vehicles from the road and promoting healthy transport via the bike scheme.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by amadeuspagel on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @12:18PM (#38630569)
It's not a good trade, there shouldn't be a monopoly on public ads, local businesses should be able to reach consumers without having to go through a monopolist that captures all of the value.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by ponector on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @12:25PM (#38630711)
The alternative is to not have a cheap popular bikeshare system.

Also with monopolist it is really easy to keep some standards, quality of the ads.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by amadeuspagel on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @01:59PM (#38632431)
I don't know what to say here anymore. Is this city not capable of collecting taxes? Is this how they pay for any sort of public infrastructure? What monopoly did they exchange to have some private company build and maintain roads, pipes and cables?
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @12:41PM (#38631051)
False dichotomy. The alternative is to have a cheap popular bikeshare system supported by taxes.

[Edit to reply to okr, because I'm rate-limited:

Well, then, make the users of the bikes pay the full cost of the bike service.

As it is, you're pushing ads in everyone's face, whether or not they use the bike. Also no thanks.]

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by ponector on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @02:57PM (#38633358)
In theory. But in real life you'll pay more with taxes for poor service.

My big city in Poland tried several times to get public-private bike sharing. It ended the same: company ceases operation after few years and take all bikes from the streets. People get nothing while millions already spent.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by lancesells on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @04:53PM (#38634687)
I live in NYC and I wish bikeshare was a part of public transport. Kids get to use them with their pass, low income gets them, they get the same importance as the train or bus, etc. All part of one system instead of having to use the Lyft or any other app.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by atdrummond on Thursday December 14, 2023 @08:56PM (#38650208)
Kids already get to use Citi bikes for free, as long as they’re part of certain privileged classes (such as asylum seekers or border crossers).

The brouhaha over the pregnant nurse “stealing” a youth’s Citi bike was only possible due to the habit of under-18 users camping on bikes to continue riding them for free when their timer expired.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by digging on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @05:54PM (#38635367)
> My big city in Poland tried several times to get public-private bike sharing. It ended the same: company ceases operation after few years and take all bikes from the streets. People get nothing while millions already spent.

Is this an argument for public-private deals?

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by okr on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @12:53PM (#38631268)
So, instead of paying my money for a bike as a choice, a monopolist takes money from everyone. Very funny, but no thanks, i take Ads anytime over that.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by j_maffe on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @02:06PM (#38632540)
The collective community ends up paying a lot more in quality of life with these ads up. Also, ads are the primary way to get the lower economic classes to give their money to the rich.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by jefftk on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @04:02PM (#38634088)
> ads are the primary way to get the lower economic classes to give their money to the rich

This seems very implausible. People's largest expenses are things like housing, healthcare, childcare, and groceries, which are mostly not driven by advertising.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by okr on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @02:30PM (#38632952)
You give money to get goods. What is wrong about that?
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @02:55PM (#38633335)
You give money you can't really afford to give in order to get goods that you don't really need. You do so because advertisers are skilled professionals, and are better at manipulating you than you are at not being manipulated. And they have put themselves in places where you cannot help but see them. That's what's wrong about that.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by JAlexoid on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @03:41PM (#38633852)
This has little to do with advertising.

Consumer sentiment will be shaped by media other than advertising. You watching Instagram of people drinking alcohol and (seemingly) having fun will make you want to drink alcohol.

Ads for a particular type of alcohol will only steer your selection of product, but do not induce a desire to get it.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by _dain_ on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @03:20PM (#38633629)
>Well, then, make the users of the bikes pay the full cost of the bike service.

Great, so long as motorists pay the full cost of the roads.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by willmadden on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @03:57PM (#38634040)
The beneficiaries of roads are much more than motorists. Almost every employer and the government needs roads to operate. The motorists include trucks that keep society functioning. You would have no food, water, or electricity in 1-2 weeks without roads.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by xboxnolifes on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @04:43PM (#38634569)
The beneficiaries of road alternatives include road users as well. Since it benefits road users, it also benefits everyone you just listed.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by digging on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @05:56PM (#38635391)
Then let private motorists pay their share of the upkeep. I'd throw out a guess that it's upwards of 99%.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by MichaelZuo on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @08:08PM (#38636542)
The guess is the opposite of reality, heavy trucks and busses are responsible for practically all road damage.

As road wear and tear is proportional to the third or fourth power of axle weight.

i.e. Even a fully loaded Escalade does roughly ~1 cent of road damage for every hundreds of dollars a normal city bus does.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by _dain_ on Sunday December 17, 2023 @06:52AM (#38672249)
The same logic applies to railways, airports, cargo ships.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by JambalayaJim on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @12:27PM (#38630749)
Local businesses would benefit substantially from the bikeshare service though.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by amadeuspagel on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @01:59PM (#38632437)
Not if that bikeshare service captures all their profits by having a monopoly on ads.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by JambalayaJim on Saturday December 16, 2023 @12:06AM (#38661900)
That makes no sense. Most local businesses don’t even have ads on bus stops. Let alone that being where most of their profits are invested???
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by docdeek on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @12:37PM (#38630967)
The ad space exists and the city owns all the ad space. They either get in the business of pricing it and selling it themselves, or they contract that business out. In this case, a condition of the contract was you have to pay for the bike scheme.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by Espressosaurus on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @12:42PM (#38631078)
So the possibility that the space remains ad-free doesn't exist?

Everything is a choice, we don't HAVE to accept these shitty ads everywhere.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by celestialcheese on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @01:15PM (#38631622)
> So the possibility that the space remains ad-free doesn't exist?

It does exist, but then the cost of the bike sharing would have be borne by

a) users of the bike system - this would impact ridership and equity of access. b) local govt - budget would have to come from somewhere.

considering b) would likely mean that the project wouldn't get past planning, really a) is the only alternative.

Everything is a tradeoff.

From my perspective, I'll take shitty ads if the money earned from those ads is spent on significant quality of life improvements. Same reason I support legalization and taxation of gambling, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, etc where the revenues pay for schools, social services, etc.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by Y_Y on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @01:35PM (#38632004)
This is shitty equity too though, I can't ride bikes but I still have to look at your ads and make do with worse economies of scale for public transportation that's accesible to the disabled. If bike share is a public good. It should be paid for out of public funds, if the city decides to sell advertising rights in public spaces then it can. Those two ideas need not be linked, money is fungible!
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by renewiltord on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @03:55PM (#38634010)
These are assertions but that's insufficient to make policy. To make policy you often need to tie things together because constituencies will want to keep net costs low as they trial programs.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by celestialcheese on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @01:55PM (#38632358)
If public funds pay for it, you personally (assuming you pay taxes) are also paying for the program, but this time with real dollars instead of attention.

> money is fungible

What?

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by Y_Y on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @02:42PM (#38633154)
But I don't want to sell my attention! At least not at the crappy valuation the bike advertisers offer.

Money being fungible means that one dollar is as good as another. It all goes in a big pile for the budget. In other words, you don't have to match up your revenue sources with your costs (like bikes with advertising), though this is frequently used for the purpose of trying to justify one thing or another.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by Espressosaurus on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @02:09PM (#38632581)
Money can be moved.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by celestialcheese on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @02:18PM (#38632726)
From where? You might live in a flush city, with lots of extra discretionary $$ flowing around, but most cities in the US are nearly bankrupt, and leveraged to the hilt on providing basic services. This is the definition of a "luxury belief", thinking the average city can just find money and put it towards removing ads that pay for services.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by cheriot on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @01:01PM (#38631399)
> This bike share scheme is only possible because the city traded away its outdoor ad space.

Yes, it's a trade off. I wish my city had free bike share.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by matheusmoreira on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @04:24PM (#38634326)
It's not "ad space", it's our cities. Why is it even possible for them to "sell ad space" to private business? Should be made illegal.

We want to live in nice towns not in cyberpunk hellscapes where we can't even cross a street without being violently bombarded with advertising. A business should be able to put up a sign on its own building and that's about it.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by amadeuspagel on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @07:29PM (#38636248)
How can a city own all the ad space when there's private property? What stops a property owner from putting up a billboard and renting it out?
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by MichaelZuo on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @08:02PM (#38636497)
Laws against privately putting up a billboard anywhere that can be seen from a public space, without prior municipal approval?

This seems like an odd question to ask, many many cities have bylaws regulating even smaller stuff, and they are often discussed on HN.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by amadeuspagel on Thursday December 14, 2023 @05:30AM (#38639832)
So the monopoly isn't just there because the city happens to own all the existing ad space, but is rather something legally created, and then sold to a private company.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by MichaelZuo on Thursday December 14, 2023 @08:51AM (#38641296)
Well yes, everything in a city is 'legally created'.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by twosdai on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @12:41PM (#38631058)
I mean this appears to be a similar model as a utility. Right? Basically a legal monopoly with a set of restrictions. I don't see how it's really a bad thing.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by polonbike on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @12:13PM (#38630479)
I guess you live in Lyon, France, same as I do. Even if I despite the ads, the bike sharing deal is quite good for users and the city.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by k__ on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @12:12PM (#38630468)
This is cool!

They should force restaurants at public places to provide places to sit, even if you don't buy anything.

Instead, they do crap like anti-homeless spikes...

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by tclancy on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @02:17PM (#38632710)
>This bike share scheme is only possible because the city traded away its outdoor ad space.

I get what you mean, but arguments like this confuse the underlying issue of how we value and price things. It's certainly not "only possible" that way. It makes me think of the Mark Fisher line “It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism.”

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by croisillon on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @02:18PM (#38632731)
it feels like 1 in 3 cyclists is riding a Vélo'v, Lyon is a very nice city
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by franga2000 on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @02:21PM (#38632771)
We have something similar and it was a terrible deal. The city still had to pay a boatload of money to set up the system, but it's proprietary so we can only "buy" more stations and bikes from the same company. They, of course, refuse to sell at a reasonable price, so for every new station, more ad space is created and given to them. The term of the contract, which is 25 years, is also insanely long and far longer than the maximum we allow for such contracts normally (5 or 10 years).

And I won't even go into the corruption that got them the tender in the first place... Fuck JCDecaux!

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by dantyti on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @04:06PM (#38634127)
The same thing in my city with jcd bikes: no new stations in a decade, only a handful of bikes available, bike stop density nowhere near anything I've seen in a large city in Southern France. Meanwhile, every bus stop, every street corner or prominent billboard is owned by jcd.

Your comment has encouraged me to dig up anything I can find about our municipality's contracts with jcd during the upcoming holiday break and, if it's anything like what you've said, raise some awareness.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by franga2000 on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @04:57PM (#38634737)
I've been meaning to do the same. I'm currently trying to get information on the number of billboards and when they were put up through FOIA requests so I can run some numbers and I already made some interesting visualizations of how badly the stops are located from JCDecaux's API.

Our capital got these bikes 10 years before us and had similar issues. A small news outlet made a pretty good report on the "secret costs of city bikes" and that's kind of what I'm going for: https://podcrto.si/skrita-cena-izposoje-koles-v-ljubljani-og...

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by zamadatix on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @02:42PM (#38633159)
I wonder how much this bike contract actually takes to maintain vs how much the holder gets in advertisements. Even if near flat even, which feels unlikely as why bother holding the contract then, it's still a way with more overhead than just funding the bike program.
Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by H8crilA on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @03:53PM (#38633997)
> This bike share scheme is only possible because the city traded away its outdoor ad space.

No, there are many ways to generate revenue to pay for things like that at a (local) government level. Your city sold the ad space and immediately bought an essentially unrelated service (bike sharing) from the same party.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by jefftk on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @03:59PM (#38634059)
> immediately bought an essentially unrelated service

At least the way it works here (Boston area's Bluebikes) is that the same infrastructure supports both the bike sharing and the ad space. There are ads on the bikes and their docks.

Re:Adfree Cities: for happier, healthier cities by juanpicardo on Thursday December 14, 2023 @04:29AM (#38639478)
it is absolutely possible to achieve the same without ads. your city simply does not want to do it.