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Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by andy_ppp on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @07:17AM (#38611214)
It really doesn't matter who is worse morally here, just both situations are bad for consumer choice. I find it amazing that Apple things it is okay to attempt to take 15% of Audible revenue if they allowed you to buy books in the app, for example.
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by pentae on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @07:26AM (#38611301)
It's 30%. It's only 15% after 12 months of a customer rebilling which is statistically insignificant number, and it was only done as a carefully orchestrated PR move to make people think 15% when it's really 30 - as you have demonstrated
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by ralfd on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @08:22AM (#38611743)
Is it statistically insignificant? My guess would be that sooner or later most subscribers are long term customers.
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by andy_ppp on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @09:18AM (#38612355)
If it wasn't significant in terms of Apple's profits why would they not just charge 15%...
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by michaelt on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @08:43AM (#38611945)
Depends on what type of subscription business it is. I've heard meal kit companies like Hello Fresh lose 90% of their customers in less than 12 months, as the generous new customer discount vouchers tail off.

(Not that meal kit companies would be paying Apple 30%)

Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by dcow on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @11:08AM (#38614066)
Meal kit companies don’t pay the 30% because the payment is for a service that is delivered outside the app. Uber doesn't pay it either. It’s a stupid loophole apple built in that all but proves the 30% cut is ridiculous and would never work in the real world.
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by jzl on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @12:14PM (#38615142)
Exactly. The whole argument about security and people needing a central payment system for things to be safe user friendly is patently ridiculous given that said approach is working just fine for all the “physical items” apps.
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by riversflow on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @11:35AM (#38614475)
Curious what B2C business sectors take less than a 30% cut?
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by dangus on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @08:51AM (#38612034)
It’s statistically insignificant because churn rates on subscription services are higher than you’d think.

A typical customer lifetime might be somewhere between a year and two years, unless you happen to be a giant like Netflix.

Let’s say you expect your customer to churn after 14 months, so that means you only enjoy 2 months of Apple’s reduced royalty rate. Your total average rate is 27%.

This concept is why many sunscription services are able to offer lifetime subscriptions. They have already figured out what one customer is worth based on churn rate, so the lifetime subscription is set up to be a price that matches or exceeds that number.

Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by pentae on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @04:38AM (#38624841)
Average subscription length for most apps varies but the average is 3 months. Most people cancel within the first month no matter what the product is
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by overstay8930 on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @07:31AM (#38611335)
I agree but not enough to get the government involved
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by j_maffe on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @07:48AM (#38611476)
Who else can regulate markets?
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by wildrhythms on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @07:54AM (#38611524)
What's your solution?
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by AnimalMuppet on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @08:45AM (#38611959)
Both are bad for consumers, but one is worse.

A locked garden is a locked garden. But a locked garden that you go into knowing it's a locked garden is better than a locked garden that advertises itself as open and then locks you in. Both are locked gardens; one is also false advertising.

Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by gspencley on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @10:14AM (#38613207)
> But a locked garden that you go into knowing it's a locked garden is better

Out of curiosity, say that I'm not a techie that knows all about Apple vs alternatives ... and say I'm interested in buying Apple because I like the aesthetics of the device or something. Is there anything actually explicit in Apple's marketing that makes it clear to the consumer that they are buying into a "locked garden" ?

Part of this discussion has to do with definitions and what we're talking about, specifically. It's common in other industries to find yourself with some degree of vendor lock-in for "compatibility." I bought some high end Canon camera lenses, for example, so I have zero expectations that I can use those lenses with a Sony or a Nikon. I tend to buy Dewalt tools because I own Dewalt batteries etc.

Here we're talking about the "App Store." I don't know that it would register on the average non-techie's mind to assume they would have options ... but us techies know that the "locked garden" tends to mean "you're buying into the Apple ecosystem of products and will likely be stuck only buying Apple products for compatibility sake." Non techies might assume that because they assume that everything works that way. But is Apple making this extremely clear in their marketing so that people who don't assume would know up front? I'm genuinely curious since I don't buy Apple products.

Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by freedomben on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @10:24AM (#38613344)
Agreed, and also worth pointing out that Apple has rules for apps in the app store that they aren't allowed to tell you about Apple's cut and point you to a different place to buy. That is the absolute opposite of informing the user. Apple is preventing anybody from informing the user.
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by rpdillon on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @09:15AM (#38612321)
I don't think it's false advertising to say that Android has alternative app stores. I primarily use apps from an alternative store and it works well.
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by matheusmoreira on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @10:45AM (#38613671)
Gotta agree with you. I originally chose Android because it was relatively open but Google wiped out our freedom with hardware remote attestation. Now my bank app refuses to work if I modify my device in any way.

If I must be in a walled garden, I'm choosing the better kept one. Android is quite simply inferior, I tolerated it because it gave me relative freedom but there's no reason to tolerate it any longer.

Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by vegita on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @11:48AM (#38614694)
Yea. I'm on Samsung s22 ultra myself. I'm thinking to move to Iphone and Apple Watch because at least with apple I know I'm being locked down up front.
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by throwaway18636 on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @08:51AM (#38612038)
As a dev, I absolutely prefer Apple’s model of locked-down walled garden. HN has no idea about all the grandmas and people who are busy with their jobs and kids, aka majority of the population. I can’t imagine the magnitude of digital fraud and scams that would happen if Apple devices weren’t a walled garden. My only dissatisfaction is that I can’t develop for iOS without buying a Mac and a developer account, but I also understand I’m not entitled to it just because I want.
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by notnullorvoid on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @10:56AM (#38613876)
How does allowing 3rd party app stores negatively affect the elderly? Just like Android the ability to install 3rd party apps and stores would likely be off by default and you'd need to enable it in the settings. And even after enabling it installing something gives you a pretty clear warning that what you're doing could be dangerous.

If that's not enough warning for someone then they probably shouldn't have a smart phone, or if they do it should have strict parental controls on it (blocking 3rd party installs, most sites, and phone calls/texts).

Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by lookACamel on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @11:09AM (#38614077)
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by throwaway18636 on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @06:58PM (#38620652)
Everything “off-by-default” is a “Ma’am, in order to refund the faulty transaction, I need you to open settings…” away.
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by InsomniacL on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @09:41AM (#38612729)
Apple could still be a gate-keeper of 3rd party stores. They could dictate the security and protections that need to be in-place to be listed.

The PKI industry is a good example of this.

The Certificate authorities have to abide by standards and any misbehaving Certificate Authorities can be removed.

I'd argue the integrity of the PKI industry is just as important, if not more so, than App Stores and they have managed to maintain a device agnostic market with healthy competition.

Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by matheusmoreira on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @10:50AM (#38613773)
> I can’t imagine the magnitude of digital fraud and scams that would happen if Apple devices weren’t a walled garden.

I can, and I don't mind. Let it happen. Computer freedom is more important than preventing scams and fraud. Just have the corporations and banks eat the losses instead. God knows these trillion dollar corporations can afford it.

Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by bryanlarsen on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @10:02AM (#38613024)
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

- Ben Franklin

Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by pipes on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @10:29AM (#38613414)
They aren't "taking revenue" they are providing a service. If audible don't want to use that service they don't have to.
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by jojobas on Tuesday December 12, 2023 @11:40AM (#38614551)
Except they want their cut whether or not you use their service.
Re:Epic win: Jury decides Google has illegal monopoly in app... by InsomniacL on Wednesday December 13, 2023 @11:57AM (#38630196)
They are providing a service and simultaneously preventing anyone else from providing the same service.