News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Why a spritz of water before grinding coffee yields bette... by Frost1x on Saturday December 09, 2023 @09:52AM (#38582355)
I think it's worth keeping in mind tweaking different parameters often yields varied levels of improvements. Going from near freezing to hot water yields very different results that you can definitely discern for example. Coarseness of the grind definitely effects results: if you run hot water over raw beans it's not great meanwhile if you could say grind to a point you broke down many molecular bonds in the bean (I'm using the term "grind" loosely here to illustrate a point), you'd lose all the nifty chemicals that you want to taste and so on.

So there's varied ways to adjust each given aspect of preparing coffee (including times of everything, the process itself, the order of the process and so on). And how you tweak each given aspect will have varying degrees of noticeable effect on the taste of the drink (some have almost none). Beans roasted 3 weeks ago probably won't be discernable from beans roasted 4 weeks ago. Beans roasted today might be discernable from those roasted a week ago, though.

Each of these aspects isn't inherently independent of one another either. Coarseness, brew time, and pressure are often very closely linked and adjusting one or the other often requires adjusting the other for desirable results.

Now while some of these sort of tweaks are tiny, combining all sorts of tiny tweaks can result in noticeable larger differences. It might not be obvious what it is because of all of the small component improvements, but the end result is something that, even slightly, is noticeably improved, which is true for about anything.

Ultimately the question is does all this effort combined yield enough improvement that's noticeable. Maybe one small improvement isn't noticeable like adjusting from 92 to 99 degrees. That combined with a series of other tweaks might yield something worth the effort though.

I know when I first started brewing espresso at home I laughed at a lot of advice thinking certain aspects of the brewing process were silly so I'd skip them or just ignore it all together. Things like weighing my beans, tweaking grind size, and so on. My first few weeks of espresso drinks were... pretty disappointing. Why can Starbucks (which in terms of espresso is often lackluster) make better espresso than me at home? As I went down the rabbit hole and adopted more silly strategies, I tasted notable improvements.

It's not just me either, I've had friends try throughout the process and it went from "thanks, that was drinkable" being nice to my not so great coffee to now people saying "wow that's really great, how do you make that, that's the best coffee I've had."

It sounds stupid until you start tweaking all these little parts. I'm not entirely scientific about it, much of it is a hit of an art and inference with science mixed in. I'm at a point now where I think no matter how many slightly improved tweaks I make, I won't be able to tell the difference and it's not worth the time.

From your example, 92 to 99 C might come down to how much energy the water actually has and how precise you can measure it. When you're approaching boiling, some parts of the water probably is boiling and made a phase transition, you're measuring an average of some other part that may not be a good sample of the whole. Those parts that are boiling may result in damaging organics in what you're brewing leading to bitter flavors you don't want, so backing off gives you some margins of error in your measurement. 7 degrees might not make too much difference if it's say 95 and 88 C (a little more time might make up for similar results) but something approaching a critical point like boiling might actually matter.

Re:Why a spritz of water before grinding coffee yields bette... by dmix on Saturday December 09, 2023 @10:45AM (#38582806)
This topic was made for HN lol

(some) Programmers can't do anything without knowing everything about it

Re:Why a spritz of water before grinding coffee yields bette... by kelipso on Saturday December 09, 2023 @10:53AM (#38582883)
I swear. There's this implication that the idea of having cooking recipes are unscientific in that post... "Without understanding why one sautes the onions, why should I saute the onions??? Where's the peer reviewed article proving that this results in statistically significantly improved taste?"
Re:Why a spritz of water before grinding coffee yields bette... by notjoemama on Saturday December 09, 2023 @12:25PM (#38583704)
I tend to think it's a side effect of having a curious mind. Anyone can saute onions. It's the curious that stop to ask, "Why does this taste so good and how can I do it again?" I think the best chef's are the one's that are curious in the same way.

edit: auto correct did me dirty

Re:Why a spritz of water before grinding coffee yields bette... by kelipso on Saturday December 09, 2023 @12:41PM (#38583857)
That's an aspect but the best chefs have mastered sauteeing onions before exploring and being curious is what I was trying to get at.
Re:Why a spritz of water before grinding coffee yields bette... by aksss on Saturday December 09, 2023 @02:05PM (#38584741)
It’s time for the America’s Test Kitchen book on Coffee.
Re:Why a spritz of water before grinding coffee yields bette... by parineum on Saturday December 09, 2023 @12:47PM (#38583902)
The purpose of knowing why your doing things is so that you can tweak things and understand the implications. Sauteing onions is partially good because it caramelizing some of the sugars. What other sugary things could I saute?

I rarely exactly follow a recipe so it's important to understand what effects the steps have so you can experiment with them. I've been trying to perfect cookies for years.

Re:Why a spritz of water before grinding coffee yields bette... by aqme28 on Monday December 11, 2023 @04:31PM (#38605786)
I can absolutely tell when onions are sauteed or not sauteed though
Re:Why a spritz of water before grinding coffee yields bette... by wruza on Saturday December 09, 2023 @01:02PM (#38584060)
Otoh it reminds me of training networks. You may spend a week tuning the params and end up with no conclusion due to (1) constantly evolving training modus, (2) the inherent randomness of the process. You can’t even know if the recipes out there help you or just add to the noise. It creates a feeling that you know, but it never verbalizes into something meaningful, apart from a few fortunate coincidences.

I wonder if that’s a part our (everyone’s) inevitable future that we didn’t conceptualize yet playing on “default settings”.

Re:Why a spritz of water before grinding coffee yields bette... by quaddo on Saturday December 09, 2023 @02:25PM (#38585001)
As someone who is something of a coffee nerd (QM67 machine, Fiorenzato grinder w/ timer), I'll admit to balking at doing any of the more fiddly/fussy things.

But out of curiosity, how much time does the coffee nerd community spend pondering and tweaking environmental variables?

For example, ambient room temperature and relative humidity? Can't do a whole lot about pressure, short of tracking historical trends vs present air pressure and setting expectations, I suppose.

Other factors: tamping down physical, emotional irritants, such as screaming children, freshly burnt toast, headaches, etc.

And something that is adjustable but not quickly so: the (paint) colour(s) of the room. It's been something like 30 years, but ISTR hearing that different colours can affect us in subtle ways. For example, red can help stimulate the appetite. I imagine good lighting (eg, warm lighting, avoid fluorescent) is another variable.

All this to ask: do coffee nerds consider tweaking any of the above, or only those things that are in very close proximity to the grinder and espresso machine?

Re:Why a spritz of water before grinding coffee yields bette... by lostlogin on Saturday December 09, 2023 @03:06PM (#38585424)
> QM67 machine, Fiorenzato grinder w/ timer

Nice! I got a bit burnt by a Quick Mill Andreja and have always wondered if it related to the the conversion to 240v that was done on it for New Zealand. The reality never came close to the reviews.

I’m now on a Faema E-61 Legend and an orange Mazzer Robur - it’s like having a particular large traffic cone in the kitchen. Every so often I consider a more tuneable double boiler, but going back to your comment, appearances matter and and my ridiculous setup makes the coffee seem better.

Re:Why a spritz of water before grinding coffee yields bette... by bch on Saturday December 09, 2023 @09:45PM (#38588540)
> Faema E-61 Legend

I worked a bar with a 3-group. What a joy to work with.

Re:Why a spritz of water before grinding coffee yields bette... by BirdieNZ on Saturday December 09, 2023 @02:52PM (#38585285)
(Good) baristas dial in their grind size multiple times a day due to environmental changes like humidity, and I daresay the decor of a coffee shop is designed to motivate appetite. Not sure if that completely answers your questions but they've certainly been considered before.