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Re:Spain expels two US spies for infiltrating secret service by empath-nirvana on Saturday December 09, 2023 @09:07AM (#38582010)
It's 100% normal and it's an open secret that every country's embassy doubles as an intelligence headquarters. Every country spies on every other country. Allies spy on allies. What was unusual here is how clumsy they were and that they got caught doing something so dumb that Spain couldn't quietly sweep it under the rug.
Re:Spain expels two US spies for infiltrating secret service by impossiblefork on Saturday December 09, 2023 @10:41AM (#38582775)
No, it's not at all normal-- when directed at the government of the target country it can be a threat to the sovereignty of that country.

After all, the expulsions are happening for a reason. The Spanish clearly do not see it as you do.

It might be possible for the US to avoid many consequences of this kind of thing due to its clout, and I can see that as something which would make it feel normal from a US point of view, but from the other side I imagine that it feels like someone trying to infiltrate your government to do things against your interests and to harm you-- something warranting a very high level of concern, comparable to a planned coup.

Re:Spain expels two US spies for infiltrating secret service by ImPostingOnHN on Saturday December 09, 2023 @12:05PM (#38583516)
As many are now informing you, yes, it is normal, as is expelling spies whose diplomatic cover is blown.

It's so normal that the term "diplomatic cover" exists to describe non-clandestine spies who are given a position in their country's embassy.

Re:Spain expels two US spies for infiltrating secret service by impossiblefork on Saturday December 09, 2023 @03:03PM (#38585394)
Yes, that part is indeed very normal.

But the fact that the country is a formal ally makes it, in my view at least, slightly different.

Of course, seeing as the US is in a defence pact with Turkey, I can understand that being ally can't mean absolute non-interference, but I feel that it gets problematic when we're talking about actual infiltration of a country's security services.

I think at least the Germans expected some restraint. I suppose if one thinks back, the Germans had a different view, being opposed to giving Turkey bad crypto; and I suppose that can be seen as them restraining their activities in an unreasonable way, at the same time, I can't accept that bribing/blackmail people on the other side is compatible with an alliance. Rather, with enough bribes/blackmail the result is a secret coup of the state whose personnel is being bribed or blackmailed, and I think if you view these things as 'normal' then you might even be blind to such a coup against yourself.

Re:Spain expels two US spies for infiltrating secret service by threatofrain on Saturday December 09, 2023 @12:55PM (#38583976)
Normal is a descriptive word, so the way to settle this debate isn't to provide reasoning about why something couldn't be normal because it's so threatening.
Re:Spain expels two US spies for infiltrating secret service by rrrrrrrrrrrryan on Saturday December 09, 2023 @01:28PM (#38584316)
Usually if/when you identify a spy from an allied country, you just try to keep really close tabs on them and otherwise let them go about their business. If they start crossing some boundaries, then you quietly and firmly let them know it's time to fuck off.

You don't publicly expel them unless you really want to weaken the alliance, and you certainly don't torture them like some of the commenters in this thread are suggesting. They watch too many movies.

Re:Spain expels two US spies for infiltrating secret service by hulitu on Monday December 11, 2023 @02:58PM (#38604696)
> Usually if/when you identify a spy from an allied country, you just try to keep really close tabs on them and otherwise let them go about their business

LOL. I bet the US never does this.

Re:Spain expels two US spies for infiltrating secret service by hulitu on Monday December 11, 2023 @03:00PM (#38604717)
> it can be a threat to the sovereignty of that country.

Those countries are already not souverane anymore. Notice how the external, and even internal politics of those countries are dictated by the US ?

Re:Spain expels two US spies for infiltrating secret service by MichaelZuo on Saturday December 09, 2023 @09:27AM (#38582168)
I'm pretty sure the Australian and New Zealand governments don't try to do so against each other.
Re:Spain expels two US spies for infiltrating secret service by jl6 on Saturday December 09, 2023 @10:02AM (#38582445)
Does spying have to be “against” the target? Perhaps allies spy on each other to make sure they are still allies.
Re:Spain expels two US spies for infiltrating secret service by MichaelZuo on Saturday December 09, 2023 @12:52PM (#38583949)
I highly doubt the opposite party would even want to be allies if their promises mean nothing and it takes the reports of moles to create trust in their sincerity.

It seems like a self-defeating exercise.

Re:Spain expels two US spies for infiltrating secret service by fortzi on Sunday December 10, 2023 @03:25AM (#38590060)
Alliance is not about love and trust. It’s about interests. Indeed, for an alliance to be possible, trust is needed, but only to a certain extent. Don’t mistake alliance for friendship. The former is between political entities, while the latter is between people.
Re:Spain expels two US spies for infiltrating secret service by MichaelZuo on Sunday December 10, 2023 @11:50PM (#38597742)
A bonafide alliance must necessarily entail sometimes acting faithfully even to the detriment of one's interests.

If the 'allies' are only faithful and only believe each other until the moment that threshold is crossed then it's just regular diplomatic relations.

e.g. Nearly every country cooperates with nearly every other country on such terms in the areas where they share bonafide mutual interests.

Re:Spain expels two US spies for infiltrating secret service by tjpnz on Saturday December 09, 2023 @09:43AM (#38582297)
Both are members of Five Eyes and one is in bed with China. It would make sense for Australia to be keeping an eye on things.