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Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by sjsdaiuasgdia on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:11AM (#38568051)
>Companies will put whichever labels they feel are required because they are still liable for the problems their products cause. This is basic and standard tort law, no change required here.

A few problems here...

It's hard to sue if you're dead. Yeah, your family can sue, but now they're dealing with that on top of you being dead. And there is nothing the court can do to un-dead you.

In addition to not being able to un-dead you, the court can't fix the disability or other permanent issues you're now dealing with.

Sure, the court can award you damages. While there are probably exceptions, most people would probably rather have their health and quality of life.

Dealing with it through tort law alone means that the damage must go all the way through to occurring. That damage can often not be undone to any real degree, only kinda covered up with cash. That presumes the poison peddler hasn't protected themselves with an army of shell companies, or siphoned the funds off into another country, etc.

Waiting until the damage happens for every single instance is sticking fingers in ears at societal scale.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by darkerside on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:29AM (#38568220)
Also, who investigates wrongdoing? Police, FBI, FTC? Why would unenforced and rampant corruption not be the norm? Sure, you sue, and the pharma produces doctored evidence. How do you find out, and how do you confirm it, and how do you make sure they are punished? The FBI has a lot of other shit going on.
Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by cj on Friday December 08, 2023 @06:59AM (#38567940)
> Companies will put whichever labels they feel are required because they are still liable for the problems their products cause. This is basic and standard tort law, no change

Are we sure about this?

On instagram I’m getting blasted with GPL-1 weight loss prescriptions and testosterone prescriptions (even though I’m in my 30’s, athletic, not overweight… I think? But these ads make me question even that…)

If it weren’t for the “talk to a doctor” barrier and you could just click “get free sample” for wegovy or testosterone or whatever other drug, there will be a lot of abuse.

Companies, especially startups, will skirt the law. They already do it and they don’t get in trouble.

But the advertising industry + prescription drugs is a deadly combo. 1) convince people they have ailments that require treatment, 2) sell them an unneeded treatment.

Maybe I would benefit from Wegovy / GPL-1? According to these instagram ads I will. And add in testosterone because, why not.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by SmallDeadGuy on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:01AM (#38567961)
> If it's truly something consumers value...

You're acting like consumers of medication have a choice. They _need_ certain medication and if the only option doesn't include safety inspections then they can't exactly just pick a different medication, they have to put their trust in a profit-driven company's hands or suffer and maybe die.

Healthcare isn't something that should be sold as people are forced to buy it to survive. That allows crazy levels of exploitation, leading to insane prices like the U.S already has for medication, treatments, and medical insurance.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by nickpp on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:11AM (#38568047)
> put their trust in a profit-driven company's hands

Every single company making products and services we all use is profit-driven.

> Healthcare isn't something that should be sold as people are forced to buy it to survive

Healthcare is far from being the only essential good that I have to buy to survive. It's a merchandise like any other - the market rules still apply. Maybe emergency care is different (since I could be unconscious when buying it) but that's what insurance is for. That's what I use in countless other domains as well: car emergency assistance, travel emergency, etc.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by sjsdaiuasgdia on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:25AM (#38568187)
>Maybe emergency care is different (since I could be unconscious when buying it) but that's what insurance is for.

Hope the hospital your unconscious self is taken to happens to be in your insurance network, and that your insurance provider doesn't decide that what you went in for wasn't really an emergency.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by nickpp on Friday December 08, 2023 @10:16AM (#38570009)
Also hope I will not lose my consciousness in the middle of the desert where there is no hospital. Yes, there are risks in life and you cannot protect yourself from every possible danger. Life is harsh.
Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by sjsdaiuasgdia on Friday December 08, 2023 @11:47AM (#38571053)
As intelligent beings we have the capacity to reduce that harshness. Not being able to eliminate all danger and risk is not an argument against limiting and controlling the dangers and risks we we have the ability to affect.
Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by nickpp on Saturday December 09, 2023 @05:17AM (#38580509)
Cost. Cost is what you are forgetting. Yes - we try to reduce risk as much as we can but the more we protect ourselves the more expensive that is until the last little part it's costs everything.

How many resources are you willing to allocate to limit and control dangers and risks instead of using them for your kids, education or maybe simple enjoyment of life? What percent of your income are you willing to give those who promise that risk-reduction and how can you measure that they lived up to their promise?

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by kibwen on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:29AM (#38568217)
> Every single company making products and services we all use is profit-driven.

And it's all getting shittier and shittier every year. The profit motive does not select for high quality products, it selects for the products that are as cheap as possible to manufacture, which includes lying about the contents and capabilities of the product in the absence of sufficient legal incentive to be honest. And for markets to work, consumers need accurate information. Thus, regulatory agencies are necessary in practice for efficient markets.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by nickpp on Friday December 08, 2023 @10:11AM (#38569957)
> The profit motive does not select for high quality products

Simply not true. Under communism, where the profit motive was outlawed, we had the absolut crappiest and worst products. While in the west, capitalism and free markets were spoiling people for choice.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by kibwen on Friday December 08, 2023 @10:40AM (#38570316)
This is a fallacy. Pointing out the flaws of unregulated markets is unrelated to either capitalism or communism, let alone an endorsement of communism. Market economies are better than command economies, but the utility of a market is its efficiency, and completely unregulated markets are demonstrably subject to effects that make them massively inefficient, and therefore useless. (Which, to clarify, is not to suggest that all regulations are useful.)

And as far as "spoiling people for choice", this is irrelevant as a refutation. A choice between a hundred shitty products is a shitty choice nonetheless.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by nickpp on Friday December 08, 2023 @11:10AM (#38570611)
Have you driven a Lada car? Drunk a Soviet pop soda? Worn some commie clothes? I did and I can tell you that until you do, you have no idea what “shitty” is.

You are writing your nonsense on a free-market created computer, publish on a free-market created website over a free-market created network.

Please point out the “better” not profit-driven computer, website and network you find less “shitty”.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by ceejayoz on Friday December 08, 2023 @12:52PM (#38571903)
The problem with full communism is the same as full libertarianism; it fails miserably to account for human behavior. In both cases, advocates will tell you "well that doesn't count, they didn't do it right!"

> You are writing your nonsense on a free-market created computer, publish on a free-market created website over a free-market created network.

Yeah, no. The government and publicly-funded universities invented the internet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET / https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet#History) and publicly funded CERN invented HTML and the Web.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by nickpp on Saturday December 09, 2023 @05:05AM (#38580432)
> fails miserably to account for human behavior.

Agreed - the only system I know of that takes human behavior into consideration is capitalism and free markets.

> ARPANET [...] CERN

You do realize that the Internet is not just a set of protocols, right? It's people, services and companies all coming together in this amazing web. How do you think that happened? Who brought them here?

There is a long distance from Arpanet and Cern to Johnny getting his Tiktok fix on his smartphone. And it took a lot of private money and initiative for this to happen. Nobody's denying DoD's role in funding the basic protocols Internet relies on, but compared to what was added on top of that since then - it's a tiny contribution, to be honest.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by knome on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:16AM (#38568089)
we did 'caveat emptor'. we created the FDA because it was awful for everyone.

no customer individually has the capacity or resources to figure out which of a hundred companies are the ones selling adulterated foods or simply lying about medicines working and throwing narcotics in all of them.

I don't know if you're trolling or if you just don't care about anyone and would happily see millions poisoned for the sake of profits for liars and cheats.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by starlevel003 on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:17AM (#38568102)
This is HN, so the answer to that question should be very obvious.
Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by croes on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:01AM (#38567965)
Companies sell products which literally kills their customers and you think without any control that would get better?

You won't find effective medication in the mass of snake oil that would hit the market.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by ekianjo on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:23AM (#38568169)
> Companies sell products which literally kills their customers and you think without any control that would get better

The FDA is killing people on a daily basis by being so slow and bureaucratic to review life saving drugs. But its the dog that does not bark so people are completely oblivious to it.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by croes on Friday December 08, 2023 @10:21AM (#38570061)
The FDA doesn't make the laws.
Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by cwillu on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:01AM (#38567958)
If your plan for abolishing the FDA is “and also abolish every other relevant arm of government at the same time”, you don't have a plan.

“Full abolition of the FDA would have domino effects on every other part of healthcare. You would have to reform the insurance system, the War on Drugs, the medical evidence system, the malpractice system, and the entire role of doctors. All of these other things are terrible and should probably be reformed anyway. But you’d have to do it all at the same time, and get it all exactly right.”

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by ceejayoz on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:03AM (#38567972)
Nor much understanding of history. There’s a reason “snake oil salesman” is a term we have.
Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by closewith on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:04AM (#38567986)
The libertarian fantasy is that they'll be the heroes of their own rugged individualism story, not the victim of contaminated drinking water and counterfeit medication.
Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by butterknife on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:19AM (#38568117)
Just watch a chain of pharmacies emerge from the ashes with advertised regulation that will eventually become a role model for competitors and they will all try to band together and establish a "neutral" administer of said regulation. Consumers will demand it.
Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by developer93 on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:03AM (#38567975)
The trouble with libertarianism is that it assumes everyone has perfect knowledge. Right now I don't need to do a ton of research about what drugs I'm taking, or the food I'm eating, come to that, because there are agencies making sure that things I buy which are labeled as such will nearly never kill me. I don't want to spend my evenings reading about esoteric stuff that I don't have to care about now, I want to watch streaming or play computer games. Even if I did, Covid has already shown us how bad most people are at recognising good research from propaganda. I just don't feel like it would end well.
Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by nickpp on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:17AM (#38568104)
> it assumes everyone has perfect knowledge

Nobody says that. Free markets are actually the best mechanism to deal with situations in which participants have partial/imperfect knowledge.

> I don't need to do a ton of research about what drugs I'm taking

I do, and I recommend all do. Just the other week my ear doctor gave me a prescription for an antibiotic that had as a side effect a significant chance of ligament fracture. I went back and he changed it to a milder, less aggressive medicine.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by developer93 on Friday December 08, 2023 @02:36PM (#38573176)
You don't generally have to check if your food is made with lead or carcinogens though right? And if inspections aren't compulsory some people are going to get lead poisoning before word gets around, or get cancer decades later and never know. Better to have someone qualified to check it before it gets to the shelves. Granted I'm using lead as a hyperbolic example, but I'm sure you get the point I'm trying to make.

Why are free markets better at dealing with partial knowledge?

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by LastTrain on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:12AM (#38568065)
>Don’t all reasonable people ignore labels because they’re useless? Sounds like once you're no longer obligated to put them in, the only ones left will be the useful ones.

Come on this the very reason we have an FDA and its origin story - false labels were rampant before that and caused real harm.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by raverbashing on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:08AM (#38568021)
> Companies will put whichever labels they feel are required because they are still liable for the problems their products cause. This is basic and standard tort law, no change required here.

Company gets sued because warning is missing, adds warning back, go back to square one (warnings are legally mandated).

Mind that a lot of those warnings come about after drug testing and subsequent pharmacovigilance work.

> Companies are welcome to have inspectors come in and certify that the drugs are safe, just like they do when ratings agencies rate their debts.

Yes, because that works wonderfully. I'm sure all AAA bonds are solid (and that even with the SEC). Oh wait

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by hanselot on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:04AM (#38567988)
Watch as they come to downvote you for not welcoming more regulation and nanny state culture, while contributing nothing.

There's a reason I leave dead comments on. It's where all the interesting things are. This place is the perfect hybrid between 4chan and reddit, but sadly the reddit side is obsessed with censoring dissenting thought into oblivion.

Though I don't need to say that, that's the thing everyone will keep regurgitating as prime reason to stay here.

What I don't understand is why we don't just colour code the opinions instead of hiding them.

Simply make the thoughts of people that are considered alternative red and everything else green or something. Use an llm to assign the colours.

I also don't understand why arguing in bad faith is unsupported. Bad faith actors are the people you need to convince, why would you need to convince the borg, you are already among them.

Re:Beyond "Abolish the FDA" by Propelloni on Friday December 08, 2023 @07:15AM (#38568079)
Oh, grandma, look! A dismissive person being angry about being dismissed.