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Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by karim79 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @09:44PM (#38564797)
> "I realized that electric eels in the Amazon River could well act as a power source, organisms living in the surrounding area could act as recipient cells, and environmental DNA fragments released into the water would become foreign genes, causing genetic recombination in the surrounding organisms because of electric discharge.”

So if I'm reading this correctly, and Atsuo Lida is correct, then lightning zapping a water source which is teaming with life can trigger genetic recombination[0], and by extension, possibly catalyse evolution (at least sometimes)?

I do love the idea, and am aware that I have no idea what I'm talking about here.

[0] https://www.palomar.edu/anthro/synthetic/synth_7.htm#:~:text....

Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by tomohelix on Thursday December 07, 2023 @10:17PM (#38565037)
Yes! Electroporation is literally just subjecting the cells to a strong electrical potential. A lightning can definitely do the trick in some conditions. Many cells will die, but it is a sacrifice natural selection is willing to make.

Although, this doesn't mean you zapping someone with enough lightning and they can become the flash. The electroporation process is one way of damaging the cell just enough to make them take in foreign DNA. Think of it like poking holes in the cell and DNA got in. Whether that DNA get recombined or not depends on other processes, which might also get activated as a stress response to the damage. But it is entirely random. So the DNA coding that specific function/protein must be available in the environment first, and the cell must survive the process of getting struck by Zeus and be lucky enough to do the recombination just right to retain that piece of DNA to produce a proper mutant.

Lots of entropy here, like someone said elsewhere. But that is life. Do it enough time and maybe something fun come out of it.

Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by gumby on Thursday December 07, 2023 @11:34PM (#38565495)
> A lightning can definitely do the trick in some conditions. Many cells will die, but it is a sacrifice natural selection is willing to make.

While I agree with Dennett,* I don’t think agency is correctly ascribed here, unless you can find selection for locations of increased lightning incidence(!).

It’s more like “any survivors remain subject to natural selection, as did those unfortunates that did not survive”

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intentional_stance

Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by cariaso on Friday December 08, 2023 @12:53AM (#38565861)
It's more than natural selection. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroporation enables gene transfer.
Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by gumby on Friday December 08, 2023 @12:56AM (#38565879)
Yes, that was the topic of the article. I am just dubious that a location that got a lot of lightning could be selected for, though lightning is not uniform across the globe. But it's a rather crude factor and hard to defend against on a micro scale!
Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by jacquesm on Friday December 08, 2023 @01:00AM (#38565891)
In the past there were periods of billions of years at a stretch with not much else going on that single celled organisms being zapped by lightning. You'd think that in those conditions it happened and probably frequently enough to make a difference.

For multi-cellular organisms the picture is completely different and it likely wouldn't matter nearly as much.

Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by gumby on Friday December 08, 2023 @01:50AM (#38566128)
Let me phrase it a different way: I don't think there are any organisms selecting for being genetically modified in petri dishes by researchers in research labs. I consider the gene transfers by lightning to be the equivalent of that.

Unsurprisingly there are organisms that seem to preferentially strike (and mutate) in hospitals, but have they (yet?) selected for some special preference for, say, urban hospitals? I doubt it, though it would be cool (and probably frightening) if so. That situation would be more likely to evolve than the researcher case.

Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by mannykannot on Friday December 08, 2023 @08:28AM (#38568764)
I feel there is a useful analogy in what happens in toxic environments. In areas where there are high levels of arsenic, for example, you find a limited ecology of organisms adapted to tolerate it, and I think I am right to say that they do not do well outside of this environment, as the mechanisms of tolerance are sub-optimal where they are not needed.

The most relevant situation would be where the environmental toxin is mutagenic. My uninformed guess is that adaptation to that environment would typically involve mechanisms to reduce susceptibility to the toxin's mutagenic effect, and, as in the case with other toxins, organisms so adapted would be out-competed in areas where the toxin is not present.

I guess we have examples in the microbes which have adapted to live in areas of high radiation, but I do not know how they fare elsewhere.

Update: D. radiodurans is an example, but it has been suggested that its tolerance is simply a side effect of a mechanism for dealing with prolonged cellular desiccation - another sort of environment where they do well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinococcus_radiodurans#Evolut...

Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by maxerickson on Friday December 08, 2023 @08:32AM (#38568820)
There were no organisms selecting to reproduce either. Of course, natural selection is largely a random process that organisms are subject to rather than a process that requires them to be active agents.
Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by jacquesm on Friday December 08, 2023 @08:54AM (#38569038)
That's cause and effect reversed! Organisms don't select, it's selection pressure that determines which organisms get to the age of reproduction and whose offspring are viable. Some outside factor (environment, another organism) needs to supply the pressure. Absent pressure life will occupy whatever room you give it until it runs up against some kind of boundary and then that pressure will take over again.
Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by d4mi3n on Friday December 08, 2023 @05:21AM (#38567342)
Behold: https://phys.org/news/2021-09-lake-maracaibo-lightning-capit...

It’s also worth noting that early in earth’s history, it was geologically very active and thus resulted atmosphere with all kinds of extreme weather—including lightning storms.

I don’t know how likely spontaneous recombination is, but those two data points make it seem plausible enough that electricity may have had an important role in the development of life on earth.

Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by mannykannot on Friday December 08, 2023 @08:43AM (#38568930)
> ...though lightning is not uniform across the globe.

If there is a natural laboratory for this, this would be it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catatumbo_lightning

Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by tomohelix on Friday December 08, 2023 @01:23AM (#38565985)
It was a (dumb) joke. The phrase I used came from Shrek.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/some-of-you-may-die

But, to nitpicking, I guess you could say the selection came after the gene got recombined. Surviving the zap and was lucky enough to do the recombination still do nothing. The effect of the recombination, i.e. the expression of the foreign gene, is the interesting part. If it confers an advantageous trait to the mutant, that mutant get selected for in the game of life. If it doesn't, which is most often the case, it is selected against, and would be quickly removed from the genetic pool.

We do this selection quite often in the lab so perhaps it unconsciously leaked out in my phrasing.

Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by datavirtue on Friday December 08, 2023 @09:10AM (#38569215)
The entire early earth was bombarded by lightening on an almost constant basis due to a number of factors.
Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by karim79 on Thursday December 07, 2023 @11:00PM (#38565288)
So then, I suppose, the 'lethal zone' would be heavily dependant on the power of the lightning strike, the volume of the available body of water, the density of life within the water, and probably thousands of other factors.

It would perhaps be much worse for ocean-dwellers than for fresh-water life due to the conductivity differences.

I would love to see a computer simulation of this, e.g., for each type of aquatic ecosystem, what would be the recombination sweet-spot or optimal conditions for genetic recombination within a lightning-affected area.

Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by klyrs on Friday December 08, 2023 @12:42AM (#38565817)
Proper mutant, hell. Mama's gettin' chloroplasts. Just... zap me up in a vat of algae.
Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by marcosdumay on Friday December 08, 2023 @09:12AM (#38569246)
Hum... I know it's a joke, but just to point, chloroplasts aren't expressed by genes.
Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by klyrs on Friday December 08, 2023 @01:39PM (#38572540)
sigh... I know, I know.
Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by dpflan on Friday December 08, 2023 @08:09AM (#38568545)
As another pointed out, isn't this early experiment highly relevant to the discussion?

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller%E2%80%93Urey_experiment

Re:Electric eel’s zap can transfer genes to nearby animals by xkcd-sucks on Friday December 08, 2023 @04:10PM (#38574449)
Up until recently this was state of the art (or, spraying DNA really hard onto cells, or putting cells in a DNA-laced salty spike trap). All pretty barbaric methods really, and still widely used.

The fewer cells comprising the organism/thing the more likely it is to have any likelihood of a meaningful result. Which is not much at best because like the most fundamental capability of a living cell/organism is keeping out foreign DNA and not integrating and reproducing it if some does get in. So the approach is to do it on a massive scale and design in some easy way of recognizing/selecting for the successful ones i.e. if it happens in nature it's vanishingly unlikely that the zapped genotype lasts for more then a generation, just like with any other random mutation.

The likelihood of a zapped-in chunk being a major evolutionary advantage could be higher than that caused by an environmental factor, just because it can transfer big chunks of something that was once useful to someone else, versus the more point ish mutations caused by radiation etc.

In relation to the eels/lightning, the mechanism is totally plausible but the question should be more how meaningful is it in comparison to all the other ways DNA is transferred like viruses/bacteria/fungus, radiation, bad luck, etc. Generally other unicellular critters are somewhat better at sneaking in weird DNA than environmental factors because it's their trained profession or something